I’m asking because I was under the impression that accusing someone of “making stuff up” was considered an accusation of lying.
Anyway two days ago, in the “SSM debate and separation of church and state” Haberdash rather clearly accused me of “making stuff up”, I reported it and nothings happened.
So, have the mods decided to no longer classify accusing someone of “making stuff up” as being an accusation of lying?
If so, that strikes me as something that should be made clear.
For those wondering what this little pissing contest was about, he had argued that prohibition was because of religious fundamentalists in the US. I pointed out that in fact it was a movement that had extremely broad support among a whole variety of people including socialists, suffragettes, pacifists, advocates for the poor, as well as various religious conservatives.
For example, the Suffragette movement was almost universally behind the prohibition movement. Now Haberdash is correct that I misidentified Eugene Debs as a supporter of Prohibition when he was actually just a temperance advocate, but making a mistake is hardly the same as “making stuff up”.
And please, no one try and argue “he didn’t accuse you of lying or making stuff up, he merely asked if you believed you could just make stuff up”. What he meant is pretty obvious.
So, are we now allowed to accuse people of “making stuff up” outside the Pit, or am I missing something.
I have no idea what the current rules are, but as a native speaker I will say that to “Make stuff up”, is not equivalent to lying. Lying involves telling an intentional untruth. Making stuff up can be done in a fit of enthusiasm. It’s not honest or disciplined. But it’s a somewhat different beast than lying.
By way of confession of bias, I tend to agree with Ibn on the substance of the issue regarding prohibition.
I find it hard to see (as Tomndebb once said) the light between the two positions. “You’re just making stuff up” is so damn close to “You’re lying” that I couldn’t slide a playing card between them.
What about bullshitting? Is that lying? I’d say that both are pit-worthy remarks but they are substantially different. Philosophers agree.
The liar knows the truth of the matter under discussion, and attempts to deceive the listener with knowingly inaccurate or false claims. Those who fabricate evidence may or may not be aware of the accuracy of their statements. Motivations can also vary: these include cognitive dissonance, lack of discipline or ideological obsession. Or vanity. Ok, I just made that last one up.
It is a borderline issue depending on context. When the offended poster makes a point of calling out the accusation in the very next post, it puts the Mods in the position of having to look like they are taking sides in a feud rather than just enforcing the rules.
The rule is that accusations of lying are a warnable offense. On the other hand, I reserve the right to believe that context is everything and therefore things may be variable depending on several factors.
Not necessarily. Again, context is extremely important.
As I have defined it for myself - and not for other mods - the lying rule may come into play when two conditions are present:
A poster accuses another of speaking untruth.
The accusation also assumes that such is done so knowingly
Once again, however, I don’t feel the need to be locked into things as context is everything.
“You’re a liar” will almost certainly bring about sanction - though not always. Other forms, such as ‘you’re making things up’ as mentioned, may or may not depending on many factors.
Best practice? Don’t accuse others of intentional fabrication. This should not be difficult, I’d imagine.
Best practice 2 (IMHO): If another poster says that you accused him of lying in GD and you don’t have damn strong grounds to back your allegation up, be a mensch. Don’t be a dick. Back peddle, apologize or clarify as you think appropriate but don’t just leave your possibly bogus accusation out there. That’s dishonorable and inconsiderate to the moderators and this message board.
Grin noted, but if you decided to elaborate on your argument, I probably wouldn’t be offended: usually accusations of bullshit are different than accusations of mendacity.
Alas, the word has different definitions. As I understand it, most bullshitting is deliberately making up falsehoods, but in a humorous or whimsical fashion, thus lacking the intent to deceive. “Can you top this” tall tales, and the like.
Grin! And by taking it back immediately, that makes it okay. It’s just a rhetorical trope.
Like the time I punched Donald Trump right in the mouth.
(It was his picture on the cover of U.S. News & World Report – but I did punch that picture right in the mouth!)
Grin! That’s another definition of the word, which is putting forth an argument or claim that’s so absurd, so inane, so worthless, it isn’t even worth calling out as a lie. It’s not just wrong, it’s a heap of garbage.
I don’t see how the GD forum could function if we weren’t allowed to challenge “That’s bullshit” now and then. We do need to limit it to where it’s warranted.
“Democratic party ideology is actually harmful to minorities.”
I disagree, but I’m willing to engage in the discussion.
“The Democrats want minorities to be trapped on welfare and in poverty.”
I thought nothing, Ibn. I’ve been out of the country and with - at best - sporadic Internet access for the last 10 days or so. So perhaps you might want to calm down and back off the self-righteousness a bit.
Thank you for the answer. Based on your answer I thought you made the call. My apologies for the mistake.
I hope you had a fun time overseas.
Also, I am calm and I’m not being self-righteous.
I began this thread because I apparently wrongly thought that the mods had ruled that accusing someone of “making stuff up” was considered accusing someone of being a liar.
You have gone on to claim that you don’t think that accusing someone of “intentional fabrications” is not accusing them of lying.
Respectfully, that makes very little sense.
I wasn’t aware there was a difference between an “intentional fabrication” and “a lie”.
Had the statement posted been “You made that up.” in reference to a specific statement of yours, Mod action would have been taken, regardless. The question “Why do you think you can just make stuff up?” is not as clear a direct accusation of lying. When it is immediately followed by you telling the offending party to not make accusations of lying, (for which you were neither Warned nor Mod Noted for junior modding), I determined that the matter was closed.
Respectfully, I’m not sure how you can see the phrase “why do you think you can just make stuff up” as anything other than an accusation of lying.
After all when someone decides to ask me if I believe I can make stuff up after a post it’s obvious to everyone that he thinks I just “made up” the post.
What other explanation is there?
I’m also a bit confused by the idea that saying “please don’t insult me” or “please don’t accuse me of lying” suddenly make an issue “closed”.
I’ve never heard of that. Would you mind explaining.
FWIW, while I obviously disagree with the decision, I’m not angry, nor do I take it personally. This is just a fun little site that gives me something to do while I’m bored at work. I’m just puzzled by the idea that claiming a post is “made up”(which was clearly what Haberdash meant) can be seen as anything other than an accusation of lying.
In all seriousness, thanks for the answer, I appreciate that.
