Most of the Asian immigrants I know are not here as result of a foreign exchange program. There are a lot more dry cleaners and restaurant owners than folks pursuing their phd or an engineering degree.
Once again, I don’t think we are talking about exchange students here. I don’t know that the children of American ex-pats in London are getting into Oxbridge at much higher rates than the rest of the applicant pool.
Sure its better than nothing but there seems to be an awful lot of leakage.
So we keep affirmative action around until there is no more racism or discrimination? I thought the notion was that we have more or less levelled the playing field but centuries of slavery and segregation had done such harm to the black community that remediation was in order. It wasn’t supposed to be a panacea against the effects of racism, was it?
Wait. Why does citizenship matter? For decades America has been accepting the best and brightest from around the world. Its how we won WWII, its how we won the cold war and its probably how we are going to dig our way out of this economic death spiral we find ourselves in right now.
I agree with the notion that we should invest more in the K-12 programs. I would emphasize the pre-K to 8th grade. Its sad but by the time they are in high school, its too late. We are watching generation after generation of poor black students get frittered away by attempts to bring them up to speed when its time to apply to colleges.
Okay; I didn’t just mean students in exchange programs – I also mean students motivated enough to move their entire lives to another country to study. That’s tough to do, and takes a lot of motivation and fortitude, and thus not “average” students, I think.
IMO we keep AA until there is actual equal opportunity (or close enough such that inequalities are hard to find) in our society. We’ll know we’ve reached this when wealth and income are mostly equal; education levels are mostly equal; representation in advanced professions/CEOs/politicians/etc. is mostly equal; etc.
The girl in question is a Nigerian immigrant. Nigerian Americans have a much higher rate of college education than white americans and a higher per capita income. They obviously do not need the playing field adjusted.
Promotion of diversity is currently the only rationale for affirmative action that has been found legal by the courts. I don’t feel it is a good thing and would never argue for it except for ideological diversity which is useful for combating group think.
I honestly don’t think “affirmative action” is the right way to describe the way the highly selective colleges handle minority admissions. These schools aren’t making sure to let in under-represented minorities to make up for the injustice of slavery, nor to fix social problems in the modern era. They are ensuring diverse classes because that’s what the full-pay students and parents want; the want exposure to minorities and poor people in a controlled and safe environment so that kids that grew up in a bubble can learn to function in a diverse society. It’s literally part of the product they are selling. Its’ the same reason they gender balance: people want to go to a gender-balanced school. Right now, that benefits boys some places/programs and girls in others.
There’s also no way to talk about which minority students got in “because of” affirmative action. Their are many more qualified students turned away than get in. Being qualified gets you, at best, a lottery ticket. If you are a member of a group that has fewer applicants, your odds are better. You might well have gotten in had you not been a member of that group–it’s entirely possible that kids “less qualified”–though that’s really hard to pin down at this level–did. But you also might well have gotten that rejection notice.
Not necessarily – they could well be discriminated against, and are earning/learning less than they otherwise would. We might be getting Nigerian Einsteins and Stephen Hawkings every month, but due to discrimination, they can only achieve well paid upper-middle-class engineering positions.
I’m not sure of that, by the way. Maybe it’s because, for some reason, Nigerian immigrants are treated better by our society than African Americans.
This is not true. If unconscious bias was a problem then it has an easy fix. Just make remove all indicators of race from the application process. When orchestras wanted to get rid of bias they made everyone audition behind screens, they did not give certain people extra help.
*in large part due to affirmative action that wasn’t really intended for them.
*
Affirmative action and diversity quotas are 2 separate but closely related issues. If Harvard can fill its quota for black students with African students who are effectively indistinguishable from their other students academically, that’s what Harvard will do.
If they choose only ante bellum black American students, there just aren’t that many who would be competitive at Harvard. Harvard then has to drastically reduce the number of black students it admits, or admit black students who will either fail or switch to the easiest majors.
I’ve argued on these boards before for restricting Affirmative Action to enrolled members of Native American tribes and verifiable descendants of American slaves. Much smaller numbers of people than are currently eligible for Aff Act,so less disruption, and much more historical justification.
Making immigrants eligible for Aff Act as soon as they hit the States is a foolish, unsustainable process. This is particularly the case for Latino immigrants, and it has contributed to the anti-immigrant backlash against Latinos.
But again, Aff Act is on the way out. Gorsuch is certain to be a vote against on the next case that comes up.
Some jabroni upthread said :“IMO we keep AA until there is actual equal opportunity (or close enough such that inequalities are hard to find) in our society. We’ll know we’ve reached this when wealth and income are mostly equal; education levels are mostly equal”
Since Nigerian americans have already achieved parity and gone beyond in both educational attainment and income doesn’t that by your own logic mean that they no longer need affirmative action?
So, they don’t see a name, they don’t have an in person interview with the student, they don’t read the entrance essay, they don’t talk to their HS teachers or guidance counselors, they don’t look at any extra curricular activity they have done?
All of those can give some pretty strong clues as to the race of the applicant.
College admission is more than just tests and grades.
It’s possible, but for such a small group it could be a statistical fluke or some other explanation – if it could be demonstrated that Nigerian Americans didn’t face significant discrimination (this would probably take a few generations to know for sure), then I would be open to considering exemptions for that group from AA.
And then there’s Martin Altenburg. Possibly a German immigrant or descended from German and European immigrants who were never slaves. Affirmative action was never meant for him. This is affirmative action run amok.
I’m unsure if this is meant as a pejorative so I’ll assume positive intent here. Please avoid appearing to insult other posters in this fashion. If you feel you must, the BBQ Pit is right around the corner.
It’s an imperfect system… a perfect one is probably impossible. In an imperfect system, sometimes assistance will go to those who don’t need them. This is much better, IMO, than a system in which assistance doesn’t get to someone who needs it.
But is there any evidence this particular person benefited from AA?
Don’t see a name, have interviews over the phone, read the entrance essay but forbid race talk, don’t talk to teachers, include extra curriculars that don’t have to do with race.