So we keep AA around as long as racism exists? Or as long as any disparity exists?
Really, and how does that work out for well qualified Asian students that are passed over for less qualified students of pretty much every race and creed? Should we have AA for Asians as well? If we expand the mission of AA to include what you are proposing there is really never going to be an end to AA and the criticisms of it will be real and valid.
Bullshit. Its one thing to say all these African immigrants kids could get into these top schools on their own without any consideration of their race. Its an entirely different thing to say they got into all of them.
Which, to me, is why AA is still needed in general - because people see a black person succeed and immediately assume something something Affirmative Action!
Bullshit. I am assuming that the most likely way that black students students are almost the ONLY ones getting into EVERY ivy league school is because of AA.
Do you seriously doubt that AA played a role in the decision of EVERY Ivy League to put a well qualified candidate into the yes pile. Do you honestly think that all of these black students would have gotten into EVERY Ivy league school if they were Asian or white? C’mon now.
There are 300,000 Nigerian Americans, too many for it to be a statistical fluke.
The problem is that if the educational and income advantages for Nigerian Americans persists it must mean that not only do they not face significant discrimination, they have been given certain advantages.
The other obvious answer would be that total equality in outcomes is not a good measure of fairness of society. Otherwise how do you account for Scottish Americans making more than Irish Americans, or Japanese Americans making twice as much per capita as Burmese American, or Ghanian Americans making so much more than Somali Americans.
So, no name, does make phone conversations awkward, but I suppose (of course, the student needs to make sure that they don’t have an accent that might give away their ethnicity.). Entrance essays often ask about a student’s past, and what motivates them, so the student needs to be especially careful not to touch on the forbidden subjects as they describe their experience in school and life, and what experiences motivated them. I am not sure that not talking to teachers or guidance counselors of the kid’s HS is a great idea, as it gives a good indication as to how they student will do in college. Students will need to make sure that they do not do any extra curricular activities that may give away their race.
I dunno, it does seem like just keeping in mind unconscious bias, and correcting for it, over correcting if need be, is simpler and fairer way of going about it, rather than crippling a minority’s chances to get in before they even start the application process.
It might honestly be that obsessively over-applying to every Ivy is something pretty weird, and the sort of thing you see a LOT more in certain groups. For example, anecdotally, there’s a LOT of West African kids who graduate high school in three years because that seems to be really meaningful to African parents and they push their kids to do it. Plenty of other kids could do the same thing, but it’s not considered worth the trade-offs.
I supervise 50 selective-admissible college students a year, and I’ve never had a kid apply to all 8 Ivys. There’s no reason to beyond pride, and that’s a lot of work and expense for pride. It’s much smarter money to apply to one or two you are particularly interested in, and then go more broadly into the highly selective group. And plenty of kids that are Ivy-admissible don’t apply there at all–they apply to places like Williams or Mudd or Stanford (for 3 very different options).
Any time there are systemic inequalities, we should fight to eliminate them.
This doesn’t mean that AA will be forever. AA may not be the best choice for combatting inequalities.
But yeah, as long as inequalities exist, they should be addressed.
If Asian students are being discriminated against, then that is an inequality to be addressed.
Is AA the best way to address it? I dunno, but it would be one way.
If qualified asians are being passed over, then there may a similar unconscious racial bias bias to be countered.
With no evidence one way or the other, you can make any assumptions you like.
I see no reason to make the assumption that she was not capable of getting in on her own merits.
Did this guy get in by AA? Why do you think that she did, unless you think that there is something inherently better about this guy than her?
The thing about immigrants is that almost by definition, we do not get the center of the bell curve. So the idea that out of this already exceptional population comes some exceptional students shouldn’t be surprising. It also should not be a reflection on those who are not so fortunate.
No one has ever said anything about equality of outcomes. Equality of opportunity, however, that’s a different thing.
The reason they do this is because it is most likely true. After affirmative action was banned in California, the number of black students who enrolled dropped 58% the next year. Studies have shown that black students are given a bump in admissions equivalent to 200 to 400 points under the old SAT scoring.
No one thinks this in fields where affirmative action does not happen like music or sports.
That assumes you know precisely how much unconscious bias affects decisions. Since you don’t there is no way to accurately account for it.
Interviews are awful ways to tell if someone is good for something. Entrance essays should be about telling if someone can write and not for telling bs emotional stories. GPA can tell if a student is hard working and SATs can tell if they are smart. That is what schools need to know.
If there’s still significant bias in society, that could cause lower test scores due to less motivated students, different expectations by teachers, and other factors.
Here is the 300,000 number. Here is a list of ethnicities by household income. Here is a story about Nigerian Americans being the most educated ethnicity in the country.
Incomes and educational attainment of different ethnic groups vary widely in the US as they do in every other country in the world. There is no reason to believe the main difference in discrimination.
The thing about immigrants is that they are different than everyone else. But so are non-immigrants. It should not surprise people when people from different cultures are different. That is not evidence of discrimination.
Someone who is definitely not a jabrone said in post #23 that equality of outcome was the way we would know when equality of opportunity was obtained.
My point was not about cultures, my point was that out of their population, we get the cream of the crop.
I do believe that iiandyiiii said “mostly” equal. I am not going to say I know exactly how mostly he meant, but there is a difference between “equal outcome” and “mostly equal outcome.”
The first is pretty much impossible to achieve without some pervasive and nearly impossible programs, and would not actually do much for society. The only reason to bring it up would be to try to argue against a strawman, as there is not anyone arguing in favor of that.
The second is a reasonable goal. If you look at the massive disparity in outcomes now, then saying it would be better if they were more equal, or even “mostly” equal is a perfectly reasonable position.
Considering that the two groups (black and native Americans) who suffered, by far, the most horrific and brutal discrimination and oppression through American history, are at the bottom of so many of these outcomes, it’s very reasonable to believe that discrimination is involved.
It seems beyond credibility that it would just coincidentally line up that the worst treated groups through our nation’s history just so happen to be the least wealthy and most represented in prison per capita.
That sort of rationale can be applied to pretty much every model minority from Asians to Jews.
Or maybe its a matter of culture. The culture that immigrants (including Nigerian immigrants) is more likely to breed success than the culture that exists in African American communities today.