Is Alcoholism Really a Disease?

[Themenin]

It may be telling that so many posters here have spoken up for AA, and little input from people who’ve achieved success by other means.

As I pointed out way back when this thread was young and hopeful, I’m involved in and supportive of various harm-reduction and recovery initiatives. Although I have seen a handful of people stop using drink/drugs without ever attending 12-step groups, it’s extremely rare. Generally speaking the other methods I’m familiar with result in substituting with more ‘manageable’ addictions.

I should add to this that I live in a country where 12-step programs are far from consensual. In fact there is only 1 12-step(ish) treatment facility for 60 million inhabitants. We have a combination of socialized medicine and separation of religion and state which basically makes it impossible for medical professionals to espouse anything which uses the word ‘god’. In fact the Hazelden model has been actively resisted by the French establishment. I believe the medical establishment also feels somewhat threatened (or justifiably wary) of the ‘non-professional’ nature of AA.

The AA approach is clearly far from perfect, but in many ways it’s a great step forward from what was previously available. Patriarche, which was loosely modeled on Synanon, was a cultish authoritarian setup with a system of punishments for wrong thinking. In the not too distant past a French addict either ended up in jail, in one of these centers or a Narconon (Scientology) center, or spent his days in and out of the methadone clinic, giving the right answers about his Oedipal complex in exchange for a fix. Patriarche, is now pretty much out after being rocked by numerous scandals.It’s founder, Lucien Engelmajer, is on the run in Belize, after being investigated for rape, unauthorized AIDS experimentation, fraud, embezzling etc.

I agree that we shouldn’t stop looking for better solutions to addiction, I agree that AA is too god centered. On the other hand, I believe that AA is giving better results than the other therapeutic approaches, and at least in France, AA isn’t blocking other avenues of research and treatment.

[Kalhoun]

@Themenin

It may be telling that so many posters here have spoken up for AA, and little input from people who’ve achieved success by other means.

As I pointed out way back when this thread was young and hopeful, I’m involved in and supportive of various harm-reduction and recovery initiatives. Although I have seen a handful of people stop using drink/drugs without ever attending 12-step groups, it’s extremely rare. Generally speaking the other methods I’m familiar with result in substituting with more ‘manageable’ addictions.

I should add to this that I live in a country where 12-step programs are far from consensual. In fact there is only 1 12-step(ish) treatment facility for 60 million inhabitants. We have a combination of socialized medicine and separation of religion and state which basically makes it impossible for medical professionals to espouse anything which uses the word ‘god’. In fact the Hazelden model has been actively resisted by the French establishment. I believe the medical establishment also feels somewhat threatened (or justifiably wary) of the ‘non-professional’ nature of AA.

The AA approach is clearly far from perfect, but in many ways it’s a great step forward from what was previously available. Patriarche, which was loosely modeled on Synanon, was a cultish authoritarian setup with a system of punishments for wrong thinking. In the not too distant past a French addict either ended up in jail, in one of these centers or a Narconon (Scientology) center, or spent his days in and out of the methadone clinic, giving the right answers about his Oedipal complex in exchange for a fix. Patriarche, is now pretty much out after being rocked by numerous scandals.It’s founder, Lucien Engelmajer, is on the run in Belize, after being investigated for rape, unauthorized AIDS experimentation, fraud, embezzling etc.

I agree that we shouldn’t stop looking for better solutions to addiction, I agree that AA is too god centered. On the other hand, I believe that AA is giving better results than the other therapeutic approaches, and at least in France, AA isn’t blocking other avenues of research and treatment.

Thanks for your input. In your opinion, what is it about AA that renders better results?

[Tiamatpuppy]

@Themenin

It may be telling that so many posters here have spoken up for AA, and little input from people who’ve achieved success by other means.

As I pointed out way back when this thread was young and hopeful, I’m involved in and supportive of various harm-reduction and recovery initiatives. Although I have seen a handful of people stop using drink/drugs without ever attending 12-step groups, it’s extremely rare. Generally speaking the other methods I’m familiar with result in substituting with more ‘manageable’ addictions.

I should add to this that I live in a country where 12-step programs are far from consensual. In fact there is only 1 12-step(ish) treatment facility for 60 million inhabitants. We have a combination of socialized medicine and separation of religion and state which basically makes it impossible for medical professionals to espouse anything which uses the word ‘god’. In fact the Hazelden model has been actively resisted by the French establishment. I believe the medical establishment also feels somewhat threatened (or justifiably wary) of the ‘non-professional’ nature of AA.

The AA approach is clearly far from perfect, but in many ways it’s a great step forward from what was previously available. Patriarche, which was loosely modeled on Synanon, was a cultish authoritarian setup with a system of punishments for wrong thinking. In the not too distant past a French addict either ended up in jail, in one of these centers or a Narconon (Scientology) center, or spent his days in and out of the methadone clinic, giving the right answers about his Oedipal complex in exchange for a fix. Patriarche, is now pretty much out after being rocked by numerous scandals.It’s founder, Lucien Engelmajer, is on the run in Belize, after being investigated for rape, unauthorized AIDS experimentation, fraud, embezzling etc.

I agree that we shouldn’t stop looking for better solutions to addiction, I agree that AA is too god centered. On the other hand, I believe that AA is giving better results than the other therapeutic approaches, and at least in France, AA isn’t blocking other avenues of research and treatment.

Look at France showing us up! If only we could be that intelligent here!

[David_Simmons]

@Themenin

… and at least in France, AA isn’t blocking other avenues of research and treatment.

Nor is AA doing so in the US. Loud claims of that are just nonsense.

AA isn’t an “organization” that has either the power or the desire to stop anyone from seeking any way out. There is a Central Office in New York City that sells literature and answers questions sould any be asked. There are individual meeting groups spread throughout the US and they are all independent of each other and of the Central Office. No group has the will or the power to force itself on a commercial treatment facility and why should it? There is no benefit to AA or its members in doing so.

If commercial treatment centers and the medical profession in general stress AA it is of their own choosing. If that is, in anyone’s opinion, a bad thing then go after the treatment centers and the medics.

As I have said and Qadgop as well, leave AA out of it. AA members are just trying to get or keep their own lives running on a reasonable path.

[Tiamatpuppy]

@David Simmons

Nor is AA doing so in the US. Loud claims of that are just nonsense.

AA isn’t an “organization” that has either the power or the desire to stop anyone from seeking any way out. There is a Central Office in New York City that sells literature and answers questions sould any be asked. There are individual meeting groups spread throughout the US and they are all independent of each other and of the Central Office. No group has the will or the power to force itself on a commercial treatment facility and why should it? There is no benefit to AA or its members in doing so.

If commercial treatment centers and the medical profession in general stress AA it is of their own choosing. If that is, in anyone’s opinion, a bad thing then go after the treatment centers and the medics.

As I have said and Qadgop as well, leave AA out of it. AA members are just trying to get or keep their own lives running on a reasonable path.

People sure do get testy when others criticize their RELIGION.

[Phlosphr]

Like the latter half of the AA preamble states:

A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.

Thats all folks.

[Valteron]

@Kalhoun

I don’t think that anyone is suggesting that you “put up with” anything in your quest for sobriety. That’s not the point. Regardless of what the free-wheeling “do it yourself” members believe or don’t believe, *the organization *presents itself as a religious answer to addiction. Not only that, but they continue to prepetuate the silly notion that you can hand your addiction to an inanimate object – any object – and that will somehow aid you in getting sober. Now…I’m fine with people finding sobriety through assistance (the group, a doctor, a shrink; i.e. an “assistant”), but that’s a far cry from praying to a lampshade and believing that it has an ability to transform a drunk into a sober person. If they dropped all the window dressing and updated their approach so that it aligns with what we currently know about addiction, maybe their success rate would be better.

1. Stop Drinking. If you find it easier to quit with other people who are in the same boat, you’ll find like-minded people here who you can hang out with while you get your bearings. If you are a severe alcoholic, a doctor should supervise detox in a controlled environment.

2. Come to meetings to learn about the science behind addiction.

3. Doorknobs cannot take away your addiction.

4. **Fill the time you used to spend drinking with other activities. ** We will work with you to determine your interests and help you structure your time so that you are busy with other activities. Members of each group will make it their business to locate classes and groups where you can go to learn new skills or pursue old interests that were shelved while you were drinking.

5. **You’re probably not an asshole. ** You may have behaved like one when you were drinking, but now that you’re sober you’re thinking with a clear mind again and will probably think twice before you punch your fist through a wall or dropping trou at the local ballpark.

6. Your quest for sobriety doesn’t have to be anyone’s business but yours. No confession is necessary (your friends and family are well aware of your bad drunken behavior).

7. See a doctor. You may have done some physical harm by drinking so much. If you’re having a hard time with cravings, a doctor may also be able to prescribe Antabuse. It works for lots of people. You won’t know until you inquire.

8. Dwelling on the past can be counterproductive. Look to the future. You were a drunk but you’ve started a new chapter in your life. Embrace it!

9. Exercise. It’s been proven to be helpful in maintaining sobriety. Maybe we can get a group discount at the gym and we can work together toward a goal of an all-around healthier lifestyle.

10. Continue to abstain from drinking.

11. Try to spend more time with friends and family who aren’t substance abusers. They probably missed you during the time you were drunk or hungover.

12. Enjoy your new life.

Kalhoun, that is a very interesteresting system you are proposing.** I mean that sincerely, and without a trace of sarcasm.** Give it a try! If it works better than AA, who knows? Maybe it will replace AA.

Why would I care? AA does not put money in my pocket. It has just allowed me to remain sober 16 years (when I had repeatedly tried and failed to get sober for more than a day or two over 20 years).

I notice that you system is very similar to AA in its insistence on the need for the indididual to remake himself, to become a different and new person.

My sobriety is a fragile thing, and I am not sure I would be ready to risk my life (literally) by switching to another, untried system next week. But if such a system can be shown to work for me (sorry to sound egotititical, byt MY sobriety is all that I can be concerned with. I can’t even decide if another person is an alcoholic).

But if your system works, I might just try it. Really.