Is Alcoholism Really a Disease?

Great Debates
161

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
But that’s not how it’s presented by medical professionals or most members of AA. They don’t say, “Hey! If you want to quit with other people, come on by and quit with us!” AA is regularly presented as “the only effective way” or as an island in a sea of moral decay. Some people are joiners by nature and I think the hand-holding could be beneficial to them. But it should not be presented as The Best Game (or The Only Game) In Town when clearly it’s not.
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Agreed. But another method with better results has not shown enough people as much promise as people who have been successful with AA.

162

[QUOTE=Phlosphr]
Agreed. But another method with better results has not shown enough people as much promise as people who have been successful with AA.
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Only because our god-tied society won’t bother to look at another method. If the professionals don’t bother to look, how would the average drunk even know another approach was out there?

163

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Only because our god-tied society won’t bother to look at another method. If the professionals don’t bother to look, how would the average drunk even know another approach was out there?
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Thats the problem they wouldn’t. I absolutely cannot stand our God-tied Society, I’m not even going to get into it it pisses me off to no end. And yes parts of AA piss me off too, but I wouldn’t keep attending if it didn’t work. And if Evil One wants to make derrogotory statments and call us simple minded then that’s ok too.

164

[QUOTE=Evil Joe]
That is like you can be a Catholic and go to church every Sunday, get all the sacraments, get comfort and friendship from the priests and parishioners but take or leave the whole Jesus and God part. Its possible yes, but it doesn’t make any sense.
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You know, Valteron, don’t you? The militant, rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth atheist? Surely you have read my other threads? I know you have because you have participated in them.

I have been an atheist AA member for 16 years. In every meeting, we clearly say that the 12 steps are “suggestions”. There are several other members who are declared atheists. None of us has ever felt the slightest pressure to believe in God.

I have never met a single member who interprets the steps in the same way.

So what do I do with a step such as : “Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood him?” I hear you ask?

To me, that means that I meditate (not pray) daily, and that that gets me outside my own self, away from what AAs call “the tyranny of self” into a “realm” of greater awareness that I am part of the whole world and the universe, that there are millions of kind human beings out there who can help me and that I can help. That I am part of a wonderful human race that for all its faults is loveable. I meditate that the more I let myself sink into myself and my own needs and desires, the more miserable I will be. The more I can practice humility and take myself beyond my own selfish desires, the happier I will be.

If that sounds a lot like Buddhism, it is because I often use the sayings of Buddha as a starting point for my meditation. (Buddhism is NOT a religion, and I don’t care what anybosy says). I also make a lot of use of the Meditations of Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius (who was not a Christian and may have been an agnostic) and his teacher, the Roman Philospher Epictetus, also an agnostic.

Your analogy with Catholicism does not really work, because nobody would tell a Catholic that belief in Jesus Christ is just a suggestion thhat they can disregard and still be a Catholic.

165

[QUOTE=Phlosphr]
Really? :rolleyes:

Comments like this belong in the pit, not in GD.
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I understand you might think that but I didn’t mean it as an insult per se. If you apply any deep thought to the idea it falls aparts. Perhaps I should have said incurious?

I am also of the opinion that many hold that the whole “you can choose any kind of Higher Power you want - even a door knob!” is a technique of AA brainwashing and not a true philosophy.

To get around the fact that many people are not religious and/or don’t have a normal Christian-type God belief, they encourage newbies to employ a “practice god”. This helps the member keep an open mind to the whole God idea for those who have pretty much decided that the whole religion and God idea is a farce. A door knob, the group, just about anything will suffice as a practice god. Eventually as the member is more and more exposed to the AA brainwashing the member will eventually get converted and change from the practice god to the “real God” which is the goal. This, many times, is the “spiritual awakening” that AA seeks for its members.

166

[QUOTE=Evil Joe]
Eventually as the member is more and more exposed to the AA brainwashing the member will eventually get converted and change from the practice god to the “real God” which is the goal. This, many times, is the “spiritual awakening” that AA seeks for its members.
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I think you are making this up.

167

[QUOTE=Evil Joe]

To get around the fact that many people are not religious and/or don’t have a normal Christian-type God belief, they encourage newbies to employ a “practice god”. This helps the member keep an open mind to the whole God idea for those who have pretty much decided that the whole religion and God idea is a farce. A door knob, the group, just about anything will suffice as a practice god. Eventually as the member is more and more exposed to the AA brainwashing the member will eventually get converted and change from the practice god to the “real God” which is the goal. This, many times, is the “spiritual awakening” that AA seeks for its members.
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I agree with this. I don’t doubt AA’s sincere wish to help people remain sober, but their desire to convert is at least as strong as their desire to see drunks quit drinking. Folks who are already religious have church to fill a spiritual need. A truly secular “program” would leave it out altogether.

168

[QUOTE=Evil Joe]
I understand you might think that but I didn’t mean it as an insult per se. If you apply any deep thought to the idea it falls aparts. Perhaps I should have said incurious?

I am also of the opinion that many hold that the whole “you can choose any kind of Higher Power you want - even a door knob!” is a technique of AA brainwashing and not a true philosophy.

To get around the fact that many people are not religious and/or don’t have a normal Christian-type God belief, they encourage newbies to employ a “practice god”. This helps the member keep an open mind to the whole God idea for those who have pretty much decided that the whole religion and God idea is a farce. A door knob, the group, just about anything will suffice as a practice god. Eventually as the member is more and more exposed to the AA brainwashing the member will eventually get converted and change from the practice god to the “real God” which is the goal. This, many times, is the “spiritual awakening” that AA seeks for its members.
[/QUOTE]

Heh! I seem to forget just how duped I have been all these years. I forgot AA was trying to convert “members” from their practice Gods to the dead white guy hanging on a cross. :smack: MY BAD!

You are standing on some pretty hefty straw legs there Evil.

169

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I agree with this. I don’t doubt AA’s sincere wish to help people remain sober, but their desire to convert is at least as strong as their desire to see drunks quit drinking. Folks who are already religious have church to fill a spiritual need. A truly secular “program” would leave it out altogether.
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You do??? :confused:

170

[QUOTE=Phlosphr]
Heh! I seem to forget just how duped I have been all these years. I forgot AA was trying to convert “members” from their practice Gods to the dead white guy hanging on a cross. :smack: MY BAD!

You are standing on some pretty hefty straw legs there Evil.
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C’mon, Phlosphr…it’s blatantly clear in their text that this is what they want:

From the **We Agnostics ** chapter of the Big Book (last page):

I seriously doubt they’re talking about us drawing ourselves closer to a doorknob. This is Sunday School 101.

171

Apologies for posting on the run and without reading the whole thread. But I’m on the road and away from my files.

There is a body of evidence-based medicine that mutual support groups (especially those modeled on the 12 steps) are more effective than other treatments for the most common types of problem drinkers. We had this discussion before here, and I posted and cited extensively from the literature. But I can’t find it now.

QtM, sober over 16 years via AA, along with being a skeptic, rationalist, and demander of decent evidence before prescribing treatments for my patients.

172

[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan]
Apologies for posting on the run and without reading the whole thread. But I’m on the road and away from my files.

There is a body of evidence-based medicine that mutual support groups (especially those modeled on the 12 steps) are more effective than other treatments for the most common types of problem drinkers. We had this discussion before here, and I posted and cited extensively from the literature. But I can’t find it now.

QtM, sober over 16 years via AA, along with being a skeptic, rationalist, and demander of decent evidence before prescribing treatments for my patients.
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Does that evidence state that the God Factor has to be part of that support?

173

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Does that evidence state that the God Factor has to be part of that support?
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Nope! Neither does AA say you must take God as your saviour for you to remain sober. If it did say that , I’d certainly not attend. You seem to be hanging on a couple of words in some of the texts…but taken as a whole, the program works, otherwise people like Qadgop the Mercotan and myelf wouldn’t participate. This is not a difficult equation. But when we start saying you needn’t look at the God aspect of AA literally, people start throwing stones and saying things like: Well if you can take and leave that part, why not the rest of it…

Because the rest of it is what makes up the bulk of the help that is being sought.

174

I have never seen any evidence that this is true. I know exactly why I have PTSD. That doesn’t make it vanish. I know tons of people who know “why” they have their problems. Nothing changes until a change is made in the present. Maybe I’m taking your statement out of context? If so, feel free to elaborate.

Qadgop, you sound like an entirely reasonable person. I would be very interested in seeing those citations, if you could find them.

To others: I’m still here. I did my share of talking–just wanted to see what others had to say. Again I apologize for any offense taken by the OP. It’s clear at this point that alcoholism is a very complex problem with no easy solutions.

Olives All

175

[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th]
I have never seen any evidence that this is true. I know exactly why I have PTSD. That doesn’t make it vanish. I know tons of people who know “why” they have their problems. Nothing changes until a change is made in the present. Maybe I’m taking your statement out of context? If so, feel free to elaborate.

Qadgop, you sound like an entirely reasonable person. I would be very interested in seeing those citations, if you could find them.

To others: I’m still here. I did my share of talking–just wanted to see what others had to say. Again I apologize for any offense taken by the OP. It’s clear at this point that alcoholism is a very complex problem with no easy solutions.

Olives All
[/QUOTE]

Qadgop is an M.D. if you hang around long enough you’ll learn a lot about a lot of people. This topic is not offensive in the least unless you take offense to people getting sober. The problem comes in when you have an organization like AA which is so wide spread, and has varied rates of sucess - stick God in there, and the words, only, never, ever, always etc…etc… and people are going to get all bound up. The thing is people all over the world replying to this thread from wherever they are, have varied reasons for liking or disliking AA. Some people have lost loved ones to the disease of alcoholism, others have had their lives changed for the better because of AA, others cannot stand AA because they have known people who have tried and failed, horribly in some cases.

Either way -the core issue is alcoholism - everyone may agree that it is a terrible “disorder, disease, condition, personality trait” what ever. The question should be how to best deal with it.

176

[QUOTE=Phlosphr]
Nope! Neither does AA say you must take God as your saviour for you to remain sober. If it did say that , I’d certainly not attend. You seem to be hanging on a couple of words in some of the texts…but taken as a whole, the program works, otherwise people like Qadgop the Mercotan and myelf wouldn’t participate. This is not a difficult equation. But when we start saying you needn’t look at the God aspect of AA literally, people start throwing stones and saying things like: Well if you can take and leave that part, why not the rest of it…

Because the rest of it is what makes up the bulk of the help that is being sought.
[/QUOTE]

Oh really? ( My italics )

So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn’t think so. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kill us! God makes that possible. And there often seems no way of entirely getting rid of self without His aid. Many of us had moral and philosophical convictions galore, but we could not live up to them even though we would have liked to. Neither could we reduce our self-centeredness much by wishing or trying on our own power. We had to have God’s help.

177

[QUOTE=Evil Joe]
Oh really? ( My italics )

So our troubles, we think, are basically of our own making. They arise out of ourselves, and the alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot, though he usually doesn’t think so. Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kill us! God makes that possible. And there often seems no way of entirely getting rid of self without His aid. Many of us had moral and philosophical convictions galore, but we could not live up to them even though we would have liked to. Neither could we reduce our self-centeredness much by wishing or trying on our own power. We had to have God’s help.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry I forgot to cite :slight_smile:

Chapter 5 Big Book “How it Works”

178

[QUOTE=Evil Joe]
And there often seems no way of entirely getting rid of self without His aid.
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Why did you skip the “And there often seems”?

179

Evil joe what exactly are you trying to say? Can you put it into your own words? You are still not making much of a case. What case are you trying to make? Alcoholics shouldn’t use AA to get and stay sober because the big book mentions God on occasion? Or that the 12 steps include a higher power so alcoholics shouldn’t use it? Valteron is a die hard aetheist? Why does AA work for him? I could care less if God is used in the program, why does it work for me? Maybe all alcoholics are simple minded folk :rolleyes:

180

[QUOTE=Phlosphr]
Qadgop is an M.D. if you hang around long enough you’ll learn a lot about a lot of people. This topic is not offensive in the least unless you take offense to people getting sober. The problem comes in when you have an organization like AA which is so wide spread, and has varied rates of sucess - stick God in there, and the words, only, never, ever, always etc…etc… and people are going to get all bound up. The thing is people all over the world replying to this thread from wherever they are, have varied reasons for liking or disliking AA. Some people have lost loved ones to the disease of alcoholism, others have had their lives changed for the better because of AA, others cannot stand AA because they have known people who have tried and failed, horribly in some cases.

Either way -the core issue is alcoholism - everyone may agree that it is a terrible “disorder, disease, condition, personality trait” what ever. The question should be how to best deal with it.
[/QUOTE]

I’ve lurked SD for a long time and think Qadgop is very insightful and very bright! I’m so conflicted!! :wink: