Is America ready for smaller, more compact cars?

Great Debates
41

[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe]
Are you serious? It’s Illegal? Riding in a carseat until you’re 8?!?! My nephew is 7 and he’d never go for that.

That can’t be the case for every state then. No way. Shit, what kind of car COULD fit three baby seats and a kid in the back. As far as the airbag killing kids between 8 and 12, I have my doubts. Sounds like a liability thing to me.

[/QUOTE]
That’s what I’ve been saying. In CA, thank heavens, it’s only until 6 (for now), but a child has to sit in a booster seat until then. And in many states that goes up to 8. And you’re not supposed to put a child under 12 into the front seat at all. Shotgun fights are a thing of the past.

It’s true that ordinary cars are much smaller than they used to be–we used to bounce around those giant wide seats like little popcorn kernels when we were little (seatbelts? what seatbelts? My mom was progressive, she put babies in a carseat, but after that we just sat in the back). At the same time, carseat regulations have gotten very stringent and families buy vans to get enough space.

I’d be quite interested in a small hybrid car (and I care nothing for appearances), but I have to be able to get my family into it.

42

[QUOTE=Shodan]

I always hear about how much Americans love big cars. I don’t. I want to get where I am going as fast and as cheap as I can. Can’t they make a fast, cheap car to do that?

Regards,
Shodan
[/QUOTE]

I agree with you, Shodan.

Can somebody get me some smelling salts?

I’ve got a base model, six-year-old Corolla that I got used a couple of years ago for cheap. I could easily afford to blow a few hundred bucks a month on a car payment, but I’d rather spend my money on other things.

The only regret I have is getting the 3-speed auto instead of the 4, because that’d buy me another 5-ish mpg. Oh well.

43

[QUOTE=Shodan]
I’d love to buy a two-seater, but I can’t. 90% of the time, I’m driving to or from work, and I am the only one in the car.

I’d dearly love to get 50mpg and spend $10K. I can’t believe I am the only American who cares less than nothing about what my car looks like, regards driving as a boring chore, would ride the bus if it were even remotely practical, and wouldn’t get any ‘fun’ out of driving if Scarlett Johansen gave me a blow job every time I got stuck in traffic.

I always hear about how much Americans love big cars. I don’t. I want to get where I am going as fast and as cheap as I can. Can’t they make a fast, cheap car to do that?

Regards,
Shodan
[/QUOTE]

Stop the presses! I actually completely agree with Shodan. The only part I remotely enjoy about driving is being able to control where and when I go. The actual process is incredibly annoying. (Although I’m not sure I’m with you on the Scarlett Johansen thing…)

44

Yep. Driving is a pain, and only a stereo and AC can do anything to make it less annoying. Still, I want cheap and cheerful, nothing else.

(Oh, I found out recently one reason that SUVs are so popular in desert cities; they come with AC all the way to the back, unlike other vehicles. That’s an absolute necessity if you’re trying to drive babies and children around Las Vegas in July. If higher-mpg cars had that too, I bet they would sell.)

45

IF only we could double or triple the fuel tax. Then all this debate would be unnecessary.

46

[QUOTE=Captain Carrot]
Stop the presses! I actually completely agree with Shodan. The only part I remotely enjoy about driving is being able to control where and when I go. The actual process is incredibly annoying.
[/quote]

And I can’t believe we (and black rabbit) are the only ones. But nobody tries to sell me a car by saying, “It’s cheap, it gets 50mpg, it comes in red or blue. And it makes a statement - namely, who gives a shit about advertising?”

I am a member of a group that fills out online surveys for cheap prizes, and I often get ones for cars. It’s always pushing the idea of “what kind of personality do you want your car to have? Reliable/adventurous/cutting edge/sexy - pick one”. There is never an option for “cars don’t have effing personalities - it’s a thing”.

Although I hear you about the “control where and when I go”. I used to like the bus better than driving, since I could climb on, sit down, and read while someone else did the driving. Now I work in a place where it would be a six hour round trip, and there are exactly three chances to do that. Forget that.

And I have been saying this for years, before gas started its upwards climb. I don’t want to make a statement about who I am in the world, I don’t care to date women who think less of me because I drive a POS car - I just want to get from point A to point B. I don’t want to hear about the bells and whistles.

But all GM and Ford and Chrysler want to talk about is bells and whistles. So I drive a five year old Toyota with manual transmission - no stereo surround, no heated seats, no nothing.

Stills gets over 30mpg, though.

Regards,
Shodan

47

[QUOTE=Shodan]
And I can’t believe we (and black rabbit) are the only ones. But nobody tries to sell me a car by saying, “It’s cheap, it gets 50mpg, it comes in red or blue. And it makes a statement - namely, who gives a shit about advertising?”

I am a member of a group that fills out online surveys for cheap prizes, and I often get ones for cars. It’s always pushing the idea of “what kind of personality do you want your car to have? Reliable/adventurous/cutting edge/sexy - pick one”. There is never an option for “cars don’t have effing personalities - it’s a thing”.

Regards,
Shodan
[/QUOTE]

Put me down as totally agreeing. A car like that would have to be cheap enough to use only for commuting (95% of my driving anyhow) but it would be great. Right now I have a 10 year old Saturn, which is fine, and which I’ll drive until it falls apart. It shows no signs of doing so. But a 50 mpg mini would be great.

As for Europe, considering the population trends, I wonder if there are many fewer families with 3 kids or more then. With 2, small cars work fine.

48

[QUOTE=dangermom]
Try getting 3 children 8 and under into a sedan, and you’ll see what I mean. You can’t put one in the front seat. The car seats are all pretty wide, so they can’t go next to each other. If you live in a state where the oldest kid doesn’t need a seat any more, he had better be a pretty skinny kid to go inbetween the other two. And no carpooling!
[/QUOTE]

What are the laws like in the US? Under 8 and all those kids will need a seat.

In Europe there are increasing numbers of cars that aren’t quite mini-vans, more tall hatchbacks (like the Golf Plus) or compact MPVs. They increase the storage factor by quite a bit so you can stow away luggage/shopping etc, and the compact MPVs at least come with a third row of seating for kids. Some of seating mechanisms are quite nifty too.

And Airman Doors, its a shame that diesel of good enough quality for car engines is apparently rare in the US, there’s quite a lot of oomph from the current range of turbo diesels in small hatches, I’m sure it would qualify as fun :slight_smile:

49

Wow. Must say that along with the OP’s query, the most sensible answer is Shodan’s (smelling salts my way as well, please!).

Would that I had that attitude myself, but unfortunately, I don’t. I happen to love driving, and a big part of that is the vehicle itself. Twenty plus years ago all I bought were sports cars and I must admit I wasn’t much concerned about their "greenness’ and/or their economy, but rather their performance and (always subjective) looks. Then I not only got older but married and had a kid – thus began my love affair with SUV’s…which, in fact, continues to this day as I finally decided to sell an old Camry I’d been driving for the four years I’ve been here (the DR) and go back to my old, proven ways: bought an '08 4Runner Ltd. Guess I could – and do – make the case that I have an increasingly harder time getting in and out of small cars; not a small guy by any means and certainly not getting any more flexible, I find myself banging my head constantly upon getting in and out of said cars (even with the Camry). That and the fact that this being a Third World nation, a 4 x 4 makes a lot of sense as well, for the “roads” for the most part are Safari-like quality – and if it rains, never mind a 4 x 4, might as well go for a boat. Busted my old Camry’s suspension something like four or five times…that just won’t happen with the 4Runner.

Anyway, that’s my story and I’m sticking to it. Oh and I did get the six cylinder as opposed to the eight. Even if I don’t put in a lot of miles anyway so mpg wasn’t really all that much of a consideration, thought the six was more than sufficient for my needs. The only thing I tow is myself.

*:::hides head in shame anyway::: * :o

Kudos to Shodan and others like him all the same. No doubt they are ahead of the curve.

50

[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe]

I’m not entirely sure that its size even warrants a whole lot of attention. In the beginning I thought the draw was that you’re supposed to be able to park normally in places where other cars parallel park, but I’ve never seen that done and I’m not even sure if it’s legal.

[/QUOTE]

I was visiting friends in Nice, France this summer. The Smart Car is pretty common there. I DID see Smart Cars parked perpendicular when other cars were parked parallel. Parking is at such a premium there that it was common to see parked cars with only 6 or 8 inches of space between the front and back bumpers of a car and its neighbors. Also, essentially all bumpers were a little scratched. The only way to get out of these spaces was to push the car in front and back of you with your bumper to make the room to get out.

I didn’t see this, but I can imagine a Smart Car parked perpendicular with the car in back 6 inches from the passenger door and the car in front 6 inches from the driver’s door. The only way to get in would be to climb in the hatch! :slight_smile:

J.

51

If gasoline hits $4.00/gallon, who will be able to drive these monster SUVs and pickups-but those are the vehicles Detroit is pushing. I’d love to be able to buy a car with a 1 liter engine, and 50MPG-like a FIAT Palio-drove one in Brazil-good little car.

52

[QUOTE=ralph124c]
Does Detroit Have a Deathwish?

If gasoline hits $4.00/gallon, who will be able to drive these monster SUVs and pickups-but those are the vehicles Detroit is pushing. I’d love to be able to buy a car with a 1 liter engine, and 50MPG-like a FIAT Palio-drove one in Brazil-good little car.
[/QUOTE]

Detroit was pretty slow on the uptake in the '70s. Toyota, Datsun and the venerable VW were making a killing when the embargo hit. (At least that’s my impression of someone who was years away from driving age.) Dad got rid of the 7 Litre for a 2.0l Toyota even before the embargo. My impression in the late-'70s (in the northmost part of L.A. County) was that people tended to buy small imported cars. It seemed as if Detroit didn’t make much of an effort (and a half-hearted one at that) until the '80s turning out crap cars. So either they have a deathwish, or ‘dumber than that and they die’.

Dad bought an '84 Chevy Sprint when they first came out. One litre engine and 50 mpg – just what you’re asking for. As has been mentioned, they (we ended up with a total of three) didn’t like hills. But the one I was driving in L.A. certainly had more pep than a neighbour’s '70 VW Beetle, and it was pretty peppy around town. I had no trouble driving it on a couple of trips to Utah just for the hell of it. As long as I stayed out of the mountains. And speaking of mountains, the lightweight front-wheel-drive Sprint Metro I had did very well climbing up a snowy road to the ski area. I never had to put on the chains.

53

[QUOTE=AdmiralCrunch]
“Look at me, I’m saving the planet!” isn’t the message the smart car sends. It’s more like “Look at me, I’m driving a tiny car!”
[/QUOTE]

Either one of those will get you punched in the mouth in rural USA. Small cars tend to scream “pretentious yuppie,” whether the driver is one or not.

I like big cars because of the crumple zones. I feel at ease having a lot of metal between me and the inevitable tailgater. But I also like a car to have room for styling. My usernamesake, the classic (1968-70) Dodge Charger is, to me, the best looking car to date. And it’s 18 feet long. When I parked it next to my friend’s Prius, however, it didn’t make the Prius look tiny like I expected. The Prius isn’t absurdly small. I also like the 1959 Cadillac.

The Smart car looks like an Oompa Loompa is going to come bounding out of it. When a big, sporty “green” car hits the market, and is reasonably priced, that’s the car of the future. I do not expect that for a long while, however.

54

[QUOTE=Shodan]
I’d love to buy a two-seater, but I can’t. 90% of the time, I’m driving to or from work, and I am the only one in the car.

I’d dearly love to get 50mpg and spend $10K. I can’t believe I am the only American who cares less than nothing about what my car looks like, regards driving as a boring chore, would ride the bus if it were even remotely practical, and wouldn’t get any ‘fun’ out of driving if Scarlett Johansen gave me a blow job every time I got stuck in traffic.

I always hear about how much Americans love big cars. I don’t. I want to get where I am going as fast and as cheap as I can. Can’t they make a fast, cheap car to do that?

Regards,
Shodan
[/QUOTE]

You’re not alone, I also like small, economical cars, however I DO like having fun behind the wheel, Fun to me is a great handling car, something that corners well and goes where you point it, 0-60 times and large displacement motors are fun, yes, but I can have just as much fun in a small car on a twisty mountain road, like Smuggler’s Notch Road in central Vermont, a road so convoluted and tight that the only way to have fun on it is in a small, maneuverable car, they actually close the road in the winter as the state plow trucks cannot navigate the corners… big, thyroidal land-whales are actually detrimental there.

Give me a small, fuel efficient, great handling car with a 5 speed manual, a nice, twisty country backroad and I can have loads of fun and save gas at the same time

Bring on the Diesels, the Smarts, and all forms of microcars, any car Neon/Ion size is as large as I’ll comfortably drive

55

[QUOTE=Charger]
Either one of those will get you punched in the mouth in rural USA. Small cars tend to scream “pretentious yuppie,” whether the driver is one or not.

…

The Smart car looks like an Oompa Loompa is going to come bounding out of it. When a big, sporty “green” car hits the market, and is reasonably priced, that’s the car of the future. I do not expect that for a long while, however.
[/QUOTE]

Well some of us care as little about what the rural folk think of us as we do of what the yuppies do. We’ll drive what makes sense to us for our own reasons. My guess is that rural folk will too. Maybe for some the sell will be energy independence and for others climate change, but cars that wean us off oil will have wide appeal. The key is to have a car that does the job it needs to do. Ultra-minis do not meet a rural persons needs. Their niche is city driving and parking but being able to go on highways too.

Question - what is big enough for you to meet the big part of that “big, sporty” equation? Prius too small? Camry size big enough?

Range extender Electric vehicles (RxEV) and Plug-in hybrids (PHEV) are within three years. GM’s Volt will likely be fthe first real contender but GM will have other PHEVs with lesser range out before that. Completely battery EVs, such as this early foray by The Miles Automotive Group may not be able to travel cross country, and may not qualify as “sporty” but will be practical for many.

56

[QUOTE=Merkwurdigliebe]
Are you serious? It’s Illegal? Riding in a carseat until you’re 8?!?! My nephew is 7 and he’d never go for that.

[/QUOTE]

Well, your nephew (or more accurately, whoever put him in the car) is breaking the law.
From here:

57

[QUOTE=dangermom]
Oh, I found out recently one reason that SUVs are so popular in desert cities; they come with AC all the way to the back, unlike other vehicles. That’s an absolute necessity if you’re trying to drive babies and children around Las Vegas in July.
[/QUOTE]
As a kid, me and my mom and my sister used to drive from LA to Salt Lake City (though Vegas) and back all the time in the middle of summer in a crappy early 70s Pinto. Twelve hour drives in hundred degree heat aren’t all that fun, but it was the only way we could afford to visit my dad.

‘Absolute necessity’ is a relative term I guess.

58

[QUOTE=Dumbguy]
As a kid, me and my mom and my sister used to drive from LA to Salt Lake City (though Vegas) and back all the time in the middle of summer in a crappy early 70s Pinto. Twelve hour drives in hundred degree heat aren’t all that fun, but it was the only way we could afford to visit my dad.

‘Absolute necessity’ is a relative term I guess.
[/QUOTE]
shrug I got my info from a friend with 4.5 children who lives in Las Vegas. There’s a reason that the population of those desert cities exploded after AC became widely available.

I spent my childhood in an old station wagon in Bakersfield (with vinyl seats, yeowch!), but that’s not much compared to living in Las Vegas and trying to drive an infant around in 120 degree heat. I’d want AC too.

59

How come hatchbacks aren’t popular in the US, anyway? I see bizarre things like sedan versions of the Toyota Yaris (no such version is sold here), and generally much higher instances of sedan variants of models that over here are usually hatches. The VW Jetta, for example - it was only because I saw one of these the other day that I realised that VW actually sell the variant in Britain. The Golf hatchback version, meanwhile, is ubiquitous.

Hatchbacks beat sedans hands down for convenience, with no obvious disadvantages. So what gives?

60

[QUOTE=Usram]
How come hatchbacks aren’t popular in the US, anyway? …

Hatchbacks beat sedans hands down for convenience, with no obvious disadvantages. So what gives?
[/QUOTE]

Beat me. All of the 3 cars that I have owned have been hatchbacks ('82 Datsun 210, '92 Dodge Colt, and '04 Prius) and I think they are great.