Is America the best place for the pursuit of happiness?

Great Debates
41

[QUOTE=essell]

Apologies, I should have used a smile to explain the tone of my post.

You’re right of course, I was just being a smart-arse in response to msmith537 saying most Europeans live in flats.

I wasn’t intended as an attack, but as a gentle revelation of the facts with a small dose of snark.
[/QUOTE]

FWIW, I got what you were saying. But correct me if I’m wrong, but it was my impression that most Europeans tend to live in smaller or multifamily houses in more compact communities compared to Americans. I’ve only been to a few Europeans cities, but I haven’t seen anything like the sprawling American suburbs one finds in cities like Dallas, LA or Phoenix.

What is this minimalist lifestyle you speak of? A crappy one bedroom apartment with noisy neighbors in a bad neighborhood where you’re at the mercy of a landlord? Driving a beater car that your lucky if you can start in the morning? Eating mac & cheese and Raman noodles every night? Money might not buy happiness, but neither does being poor.

The problem in American as I see it is that it is becoming harder and more competetive to live the American dream lifestyle of a comfortable house, a car and a family. People have to work harder and harder just to be comfortable, forget successful. There is no stability in the workplace. Jobs can be outsourced, downsized, or terminated without cause at any time. Even so-called “succesful” people making six figure salaries don’t have it good. To make that kind of money, you generally have to work in technology, banking&finance, consulting, law, medicine or have worked your way to management over the years. These jobs are all highly competetive, demanding and often volatile as anyone who worked at Arthur Andersen or Bear Sterns can tell you.

And the trap, of course, is no matter how much you make, there is someone making a lot more who makes you realize how poor you are.

42

[QUOTE=Gozu]
None, it was a sincere compliment.
[/QUOTE]
Well, thank you for the compliment, but I wasn’t really trying to be patriotic. I don’t know if the “American way” is the best way, but I think that the phrase “pursuit of happiness” does say a lot about how Americans think about their country, for better or worse.

43

Interestingly, this was a topic of conversation with a former collegue of mine who worked in some group that actually calculated the ‘level of happiness’ in the country. They have been doing it for a long time and also what seems to have the biggest impact on happiness. I really wish I could remember what it is…

If I remember currectly, it was something like this and, I think, in this order:

Health - if you were suffering from chronic disease (not necessarily fatal) it had a huge impact on happiness.

Marriage - people in a loving marriage tended to be much happier. Divorced, loveless marriages and single people wishing to be married were much less happy.

Attractiveness - people that are very attractive tended to be very happy. People that were very unattractive tended to be miserable. How did they do this you ask? The interviewer recorded whether or not the person they were interviewing was in the upper or lower 10% of attractiveness. Subjective, but my collegue said it worked.

Social Status - People who thought they were in a higher social status or were respected in their career/whatever tended to be happy. Those that did not tended to be unhappy.

Money - like attractiveness, those that made low amount tended to be unhappy. However, once it reached a certain threshhold, it had little effect.

I’m sure I’m missing some, but that is what I remember. At the time I was talking with him about it, I was thinking ‘that’s a cool job!’ :slight_smile:

44

[QUOTE=msmith537]
FWIW, I got what you were saying. But correct me if I’m wrong, but it was my impression that most Europeans tend to live in smaller or multifamily houses in more compact communities compared to Americans. I’ve only been to a few Europeans cities, but I haven’t seen anything like the sprawling American suburbs one finds in cities like Dallas, LA or Phoenix.

[/QUOTE]

A lot of things are smaller in Europe. Cars, houses, stores, refrigerators, and dishwashers tend to be smaller. This does not make these things inferior.

Actually I think the size of suburbia that surrounds so many US cities is a blight , we could learn a lot from how Germans cities are laid out.

Getting back to the OP, I assure you that Germans are not a cheery bunch. That said I think it’s easier to be happy over there, if you are disadantaged, the government actually performs useful functions for its citizens.

45

[QUOTE=gatorman]
It all boils down to the (painful) truth that money doesn’t buy happiness, money is actually pretty worthless
[/QUOTE]

That’s absolutely not what it boils down to. You seem to suggest that any other country other than the US, such as, in this case, Denmark, must be dirt poor, but in fact, when you look at the countries listed in the link, they’re all really really rich countries. One thing you can say is that in most (but not all) of the countries, the wealth is distributed more equally than in the US, which means that more people have access to some level of it rather than a few having access to much of it - but some level of money absolutely buys happiness.

(note: of course, looking at these things at the level of countries is making the ‘ecological fallacy’: countries aren’t (un)happy, people are. So we really need to be looking at whether richer people (rather than countries) are happier than poorer people)

46

My guesses about the major reasons that Danish people are happy:

  1. There is a very trusting atmosphere. You can leave stuff unintended, I rarely lock the door to my house, etc. When I speak to people from southern Europe, they often express surprise at this. Girls can walk around the town alone at night without feeling threatened.

  2. Danish people generally keep in good shape. I believe that regular exercise makes you happier, and of course being attractive does too.

  3. There are very few poor people. There aren’t any homeless people, except those who are it by choice. And now they have started selling a “homeless newspaper”, which actually earns them a better hourly wage than I get. I personally dislike our lame social democratic government, but this is one thing that is pretty nice.

47

Being a Dane, I am of course fascinated with how outsiders see my little tribe.

Danes (picking out the broadest brush I can find here) tend to be on the guard against too-high expectations and, regrettably, too-high ambitions as well. Shortly after the adoption of the democratic constitution in 1849 came the catastrophic war of 1864 with its loss of the Schleswig & Holstein duchies, which really dampened the spirits of the emerging modern nation. Modern Denmark was more or less born in a mood of “let’s get the best out of a bad situation”. Danish agriculture (which was and still in a lot of respects is a cornerstone of the economy) expanded into parts of the country considered worthless not due to an vigorous entrepreneurial spirit, but as a necessity. “Outward loss, inward gain” was the motto.

I can’t provide a cite, obviously, but I’m not the only one who feels that the 1864 spirit of adjusting to defeat is a huge part of the Danish mentality. On that background, what’s not to be happy about? (The Clinton administration’s ambassador was absolutely baffled by this and said as much. He commissioned a painting honouring the Danish UN troops in Bosnia because he was tired of the Danish habit of dwelling on misfortune.)

Another part is, of course, the safety net. Much maligned and poked fun at, it’s real and it’s there. When I first arrived in the US and had a hell of a time getting work, I didn’t realize until I landed a proper job with health insurance how much I’d worried about that. (And I’m amazed that people just accept the “lose your job, lose your health care” model. No wonder people try very hard to stay employed!)

If your idea of happiness is chasing the dream and making a bundle, the US is great. It’s not such a nice place for those down on their luck. Denmark is pretty good for building a successful life, if that’s what you want - and pretty good if you’re unlucky, too.

I have no idea what point I’m actually trying to make.

48

I think the lesson of the Amish is that happiness is not necessarily correlated with the amount of ‘stuff’ you have.

Healthy body and mind and healthy relationships would seem to be the keys. Once you have enough wealth to ensure a healthy body and mind, any more isn’t all that necessary. It’s finding the healthy relationships that’s the hard part.

49

[QUOTE=BlinkingDuck]
Interestingly, this was a topic of conversation with a former collegue of mine who worked in some group that actually calculated the ‘level of happiness’ in the country. They have been doing it for a long time and also what seems to have the biggest impact on happiness. I really wish I could remember what it is…

If I remember currectly, it was something like this and, I think, in this order:

Health - if you were suffering from chronic disease (not necessarily fatal) it had a huge impact on happiness.

Marriage - people in a loving marriage tended to be much happier. Divorced, loveless marriages and single people wishing to be married were much less happy.

Attractiveness - people that are very attractive tended to be very happy. People that were very unattractive tended to be miserable. How did they do this you ask? The interviewer recorded whether or not the person they were interviewing was in the upper or lower 10% of attractiveness. Subjective, but my collegue said it worked.

Social Status - People who thought they were in a higher social status or were respected in their career/whatever tended to be happy. Those that did not tended to be unhappy.

Money - like attractiveness, those that made low amount tended to be unhappy. However, once it reached a certain threshhold, it had little effect.

I’m sure I’m missing some, but that is what I remember. At the time I was talking with him about it, I was thinking ‘that’s a cool job!’ :slight_smile:
[/QUOTE]

I would tend to agree, however I believe that the constant pursuit of a suitable mate, image, social status, and money in an environment that seems to be becomming more competetive and “winner take all” is leading to much greater unhappiness.

50

America ?as a nation incredible achievements,innovative,much more room and often much more exciting.

But the downside?
Short paid work holidays
If you get sick it will cost you
If you cant work your in trouble
The lack of comprehensive welfare plus the much more ready availability of firearms means that crime is by European standards much more prevalent and much more fatal.

Much more psycho looney religious cults

Many more psycho looney individuals,serial killers and shooting spree school kids.

To European eyes no chance of a national level political career unless you are seriously well off and/ or have big money backing with very little noticable choice between the two main parties when you vote.

America is an incredible country but I wouldn’t like to live there.

As to Denmark…some of the fittest women on earth but too bloody cold in wintertime.

51

[QUOTE=Lust4Life]

Short paid work holidays
.
[/QUOTE]

It is sad how people over here love their pitiful 2 weeks. Me too unfortunately

52

[QUOTE=msmith537]

The problem in American as I see it is that it is becoming harder and more competetive to live the American dream lifestyle of a comfortable house, a car and a family. People have to work harder and harder just to be comfortable, forget successful. There is no stability in the workplace. Jobs can be outsourced, downsized, or terminated without cause at any time. Even so-called “succesful” people making six figure salaries don’t have it good. To make that kind of money, you generally have to work in technology, banking&finance, consulting, law, medicine or have worked your way to management over the years. These jobs are all highly competetive, demanding and often volatile as anyone who worked at Arthur Andersen or Bear Sterns can tell you.

[/QUOTE]

Which is why I’m trying to lower my standards a bit. I grew up with that suburban dream that was much easier for my parents to attain, despite their blue-collar jobs and lack of education. It will be very difficult for me to do as well, despite the advantages I was born with (ten years out of college I’m still not significantly above the poverty line). Maybe the only solution is to learn how to settle for less. Unless something dramatic happens to the economy that halts the erosion of the middle class, a lot of Americans will need to do the same, or face a lifetime of disappointment.

53

This sort of stuff always reminds me of the Vietnamese child prodigy in the Simpsons:

“When my family arrived in this country four months ago, we spoke no English and had no money in our pockets. Today, we own a nationwide chain of wheel-balancing centers. Where else but in America, or possibly Canada, could our family find such opportunity? That’s why, whenever I see the Stars and Stripes, I will always be reminded of that wonderful word: flag!”

54

[QUOTE=Lust4Life]

As to Denmark…some of the fittest women on earth but too bloody cold in wintertime.
[/QUOTE]
But they smoke.* My husband just lost two close relatives to lung cancer within a year. :frowning:

Anyways. I think that the Danish social safety net, combined with a healthy mentality vis a vis wealth is what makes them happy. It helps that it is a beautiful country, and living there is as safe as can be. The lack of the constant threat of natural disasters must help too. I have to wonder every year if some of my roof is going to be taken in the next hurricane.
*Denmark has the higher percentage of women smokers per capita in the world.

55

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
Of course the Danish are happy. I’d be happy, too, were I covered in icing sugar.
[/QUOTE]

And cinnamon, don’t forget the cinnamon.

Then some unhappy American could eat you and you’d make him/her happy.

A win-win situation