What is the "European Dream" in comparison to the American one?

Great Debates
1

I suppose this is mainly going out to people that have experienced a significant amount of time in Europe and America.

Ok I remember reading the thread about “what is the (insert country here) dream?” thread a while back but that hasn’t really satisfied my question. As you all may know, I am an American and I live in Germany, but one thing has really been curious to me.

Maybe I don’t know America as well as I think I do, but from my position, I think I see the ideals of success in America pretty well. To be one of the most successful Americans, you need to make it big in some way or another. And there is an actual belief in that. For instance, take the number of kids that play sports to become a professional. We here at the straight dope are obviously not so concerned about what the rest of America thinks and are mostly happy to be our own person. But I am talking in general as much as possible to describe one of the key differences between America and Europe that I really appreciate and can’t quite explain.

Americans are really goal oriented, and worried about their careers, it seems to me, but the Europeans aren’t. What, then is the main focus of one’s life? Is it a uniquely American trait to have your life described so much by your career? I am not particularly letting my career play such a big role in my life as I am my desire to do things that I would like to do (not involving my job). To me my job is just a means to an end. You can see how this is a big shock for me coming from America to Europe, where before I wasn’t in the majority with this view, but here it seems that most people don’t really care about their careers as most Americans do either.

Another thing is the whole social competition thing. IMHO (and this is a strong IMHO from my perceptions only) Americans, (at least of my age group of the twenties) are very competetive. Its all about who has the flashiest cars, the nicest clothes, the coolest friends, etc. This is an exageration in many aspects, I know, but it is true to some extent, isn’t it? Why else would fratboys and sorority girls be so popular? They are extremely IMHO superficial-type goals to live one’s life by.

I suppose the true question about the American Dream is that it is a little superficial and has always been. The idea of keeping up with the neighbors seems a little stupid to me, and I never understood it. I suppose this is why you can find many college-age-kids working their buts off to get into good undergrad schools and graduate schools and going deeply into debt. This isn’t by any means any kind of jab at these people, its just that this thing doesn’t really seem to happen in Europe as much. There are many reasons for this, mainly that the costs of attending a university in Europe are much lower and the differences between Universities aren’t as big as those in America. Obviously Harvard is much better than some State University.

A typical question that I found interesting was a guy earlier asking if its normal for a guy to go to the tanning bed. I am not criticizing him in any way, and would probably be concerned myself if I were in America now, but why is it such an issue? Why do we care so much about what people think of us? Is this why Americans tend to think that Germans and Europeans in general often speak too directly? Are we Americans taking the opinions of our own society to seriously? Is that why people get laughed at for dressing differently? Do we Americans take our selves too seriously to be bothered with what other people think of us?

Well, I have 4 minutes to finish before the lab closes, so I’ll have to make it shorter.

I suppose the question I am asking is what are the things you notice being different on a “personal goal” level and a “keeping up with society” level between America and Europe. Are we Americans taking ourselves to seriously? Are Europeans too blase and unconcerned? I hope you understand what I am talking about, because I think about it all the time, and it is one of the reasons I may end up living in Europe permenantly.

Feel free to hijack if you feel its important.

2

Personally, I don’t believe the American dream is exclusive to Americans. The drive to succeed is hardly some special anomaly. It’s just that the United States provided the conditions for such a ‘dream’ at an earlier stage.

Firstly, for a ‘dream’ to work, a society needs to be largely void of class barriers. Where there are highly rigid and visible tiers of society people seem to be feel the expectation only to stay where they are. Of course, those towards the bottom will wish to move up, but this is more of a fantasy than dream.

The United States obviously became democratic far earlier than many European nations, many even taking their monarchies into the twentieth century with them. Britain, the Netherlands, Sweden and many others even retain these monarchies in symbolic form. Speaking from a British perceptive, while most of the class system is gone, there are still upper-middle students dominating universities and artefacts such as accents have an understated effect. The cost of higher education is also important, as you pointed out.

Secondly, people need to have large disposable incomes and the possibility of ‘making it big’ quite real. Wealth simply isn’t as abundant in many European countries as it is in the United States. Of course, the average citizen is just as likely to show of his new car – it just may not be as flashy on this side of the pond. Laws are also often arranged in a way that may discourage entrepreneurs.

Thirdly, a competitive spirit and a self-confident attitude need to be fostered in the population. Admittedly, this aspect may be exclusive to Americans in a way. Without venturing into towards tricky stereotypes, it seems these areas are encouraged more in the States. This naturally encourages ‘dream’ pursuing behaviour. Where I live in German Switzerland, there is an abundance of wealth and relatively weak class divides, yet the absence of these traits leads to a more modest version of the American dream.

I am a firm believer that where these criteria are satisfied, an American dream type attitude will arise in the population. Because of the general absence of some of these across various European countries, what we have is a scaled down version of the American dream, frequently undermined by resignation to the facts life.

I would also like to note that the American dream does not seem to be universal across United States, but only in the areas where these conditions are satisfied. I hardly think some farmer in Idaho is too concerned with the flashiest cars and the coolest friends.

3

The American Dream is a delusion leading to a trap.

I have listened to two women talking about spending $3000 on a laptop computer. One woman I know made less than $50,000/year and she knows word processing and accounting. She could get a used laptop for $400 that could do everything she knows how to do. I invited her to an Oriental rug auction once but she wasn’t interested. A $3000 laptop will be worth about $600 in 2 years. $100/month depreciation.

Look at all the TV ads about bankruptcy.

I wonder how much American social psychology is based on British social psychology. Are the British more image oriented than the German’s?

Dal Timgar

4

I think I have to take exception to your characterization of American culture. Yes, we have those elements, certainly–but I would say that a big percentage of Americans are not career-driven, ambitious, money-and-prestige-hungry people. Materialism is certainly a problem in the US, but I don’t know how much worse of a problem than in Europe.

Disclaimer: Perhaps my personal experience of Europe and America has colored my perceptions in the opposite way–when I lived in Denmark I was constantly let to know how inadequate my clothing was, right down to the underwear no one ever saw. My brothers, in Germany, also experienced similar attitudes. What I found was that I and others were constantly judged by our homes and our clothing, far more so than I was used to. Oh, and everyone ‘tanned,’ which really surprised me!

It’s just that pretty much everyone I know (and no, anecdotes aren’t data, I know) has similar goals for life in America: make a decent living doing something you like (means: keep a roof over your head), raise a good family, spend enough time at home with your kids, and have a nice hobby or two. A lot of people seem happy enough living with a lower-middle-class salary from Dad, and Mom either at home or working part-time–while the kids are at home, anyway. Think of how many cops and teachers (and librarians!) there are, who never expect to make it big and love what they do, but have to work hard to live.

We lived in Silicon Valley during the dot-com boom. There were plenty of people making tons of money, yep, and many of them spent it on flashy cars and great stereos, and they talked a lot about their stock options. A large number of them made great salaries by most standards–but of course home prices were through the roof, so a big chunk of those salaries went to rent money. We used to joke about how we didn’t dare tell our families what we earned, because they would wonder why we still weren’t rich. The DangerFamily moved out as soon as I finished grad school and we found a different job, because we wanted a place where we could raise a family and not be stuck in traffic all the time.

At that time, I remember seeing a TV program, the theme of which was “why doesn’t everyone want to be rich?” It was a weird show; the news guy was wandering around a Target or someplace low-class like that, asking people if they didn’t feel envious or annoyed that they weren’t getting rich from dot-coms. He seemed genuinely confused at these people who appeared content with their lot in life. The questions were things like: “Well, how do you decorate your home if you can’t afford a home decorator? Don’t you wish you could really decorate your house?” And the person would reply, “I like to do crafts. I do that stuff myself.” And the news guy would shake his head wonderingly, and hold up these (to me) perfectly normal people as a strange anomaly.

Yes, American culture is materialistic and ambitious. But not everyone subscribes to what the media or whatever is telling them, and IME those messages are very youth-oriented. A lot of your college-mates will grow up and discover that they want a good spouse more than they want a flashy car–or I hope so, anyway. Many, many Americans worry about their careers not because they feel that their jobs are more important than other things, but because they truly fear–and with good reason–what could happen if the job goes away.

I don’t know how well I can compare all that with Europe. When I was there, I felt that there was more respect for manual labor/blue-collar type work among young people, and fewer people thinking about university–but more available vocational education. OTOH, the different work climate in Europe means that job opportunities are very very different–probably more so than I realize. In the US, a bachelor’s degree is almost a necessity, and there isn’t as much vocational training. And nobody, at all, gets 4 weeks of vacation a year. So even though so many Americans only work so they can live, they don’t get to live as much as they would like.

5

I’ve had a couple of glasses of wine tonight (on a Thursday, no less) and really shouldn’t be posting, but this very subject fascinates me, and I can’t resist the temptation. I’ll probably regret this in the morning and have to post again to clear up what I’m trying to say.

  1. There isn’t a ‘European’ dream as there is no common denominator (sp?) which describes all of Europe. There are even large differences within countries.

  2. People will be people. With this I mean that I think a large number of Europeans who aim for the ‘American’ way of life, left for America. ‘If I can make it here, I’ll make it anywhere’. That attitude is attractive to people, no matter the origins. Those who subscribe to it will try to get where this is part of the social mores. I’d venture that m,any European countries are more… egalitarian… (through the welfare state) than the US. Thus, people who’re not comfortable with this way of being might gravitate towards the US.

  3. During my time in the US, I found it strange that so many Americans have ingrained in them, that if you only try (and are born in a log cabin) you might be president. While this technically is true, and while the US is the beacon that shines for all peoples from class defined societies, it’s way too simple a paradigm. There are, of course, no official barriers within the US law. However, the mores of the society has not kept up. Are there any openly gay people in house/senate? Any ‘racial’ minority with even a remote chance of the precidency?
    Legislation is one thing, the real world is another.
    All men are equal under the law, but the verdict of the public is many times harsher than what the law dictates.

  4. If there is one thing that I think separates Americans from Europeans, it’s that the latter value what they do outside work much more. Many people have six or seven weeks of vacation + national holidays. In my country, anyone who has the financial means will retire at 55 or 60. Work is something you do to be able to afford your spare time, not a goal in itself. Few Europeans would agree to work under the conditions of US law (i.e. minimum wage [which is much lower in the US], amount of vacation [I think the lowest in Europe is five weeks], no job security [as compared to the US]).

  5. I’ve always thought of the US as a ‘consumer’ society, to a much larger degree than the welfare states of Europe. Believe me, we like to consume, but it seems to me that people in the US are much more into consumerism, than Europeans. OTOH, this is changing daily, as more and more people here adopt to a way of thinking that is more in line with the US.

I’ll check in tomorrow to see if my ramblings made any sanse whatsoever.

tG

6

There isn’t really any such thing as the “European Dream”. If i think of the phrase, the only thing that comes to my mind is the “dream” of the original founders of what is now the EU - that European countries should develop closer bonds so that something like WW1 and WW2 can never happen again. I don’t think Europe has as much as a common identity or culture than the US. For example, someone from Montana will probably describe themselves as American first, then Montanan (or whatever the adjective is) second. Someone from England will probably say they’re English first, European second.

Having said that, from my limited experience i would agree that on average, Americans do tend to be more competitive, and “being a success” orientated, than the average European. I think this is probably one of the main reasons why the American economy tends to outperform EU ones. I can’t say i’ve noticed that Americans are more concerned with what others think though.

As to which is right, well thats purely a subjective opinion, neither is morally superior, or better in any way. In my opinion, being less career orientated and competitive will give you a higher quality of life, but less wealth. And quality of life is far more important than wealth. Others will disagree.

7

Yes

8

Not sure I would qualify it as the American dream so much as the freedom of choice that is more prevalent. You don’ t have to be wealthy in America to go golfing, skiing, flying, surfing, racing etc… These elements are plentiful in different countries in varying degrees but you have access to all of them in America. I think it is probably easier to own a house and some land in the US due to the population density. I would guess a country like Australia is similar in a lot of ways for the same reason.

9

I thought the European Dream was to ride around Rome in a motorcycle and say “Ciou!”

(Sorry, I had an Eddy Izzard moment - the guy is too funny).

Carry on.

10

I always assumed it was just another empty slogan; the purpose of this one to encourage consumerism for the sake of consumerism, and to encourage the notion that you become somebody to respect not for who you are but your spending power.

Hence, it didn’t catch on in Europe.

11

Spending money didn’t catch on in Europe? Do you just give it all up in taxes?

As I said earlier, I think it’s opportunity that is the basis of the “American dream”. Money is only a part of it. My dad couldn’t afford a house when he started out so he built one. I did the same thing with a garage. The opportunity to order trusses and cement to my specifications saved me 4/5 the cost. I was able to over-engineer a garage the way I wanted and people were eager to compete for my business.

In my circle of poverty, success is measured in sweat-equity. There’s also a certain “barn-raising” mentality with my buddies. A couple of beers and a pizza will get me on a friend’s roof. That’s actually how I learned to build a garage (how many schools let you drink beer in class?) Maybe my way of life is fading, don’t know. But that’s how I see the American dream.

12

I think the typical German’s aspirations could be summed up as:

  • higher eduction, if possible a respected university degree
  • alternatively: master’s status in a craft
  • respected professional job (prestige of the profession/craft tending to be more important than income)
  • overall security highly valued: (job security (v. important), good health into old age, peace)
  • a family
  • some good friends
  • building your own house (usually a once-in-a-lifetime project because German houses tend to be expensive, because it’s a once-in-a-lifetime project (circular effect here), and people tend to be very much attached to their house; regarding it as an investment to be traded in some time is seen as rather heartless).
  • being respectable middle class (in fact if there is a collective German dream it is of everyone being middle class)
13

Dreams? Us Europeans are much to cynical for those.

14

I don’t think of the American Dream as being anything more than reaching your full potential - for most people, I think that means having a family, friends and a comfortable standard of living. We identify with it especially because it’s enshrined in the foundations of our government - the “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” in the Declaration of Independence, but really, I think it’s something most everyone shares.

15

In contrast to the individualistic nature of the AD, I would suggest that its European counterpart, if such can be said to exist, would have a more collective, social nature: Perhaps a situation in which there was enough food, shelter, teachers and doctors that nobody needed to go hungry or suffer from a treatable condition in a land of plenty. Or, perhaps, a situation where we could get along just as well while working one day a week less.

Of course, that very aspect of competition makes this far more difficult than if Europe lived in a vacuum.

16

Bingo. Europe (or, at least, huge parts of it) is now seeing the birth of a generation of children whose parents - and, quite often, grandparents - have never suffered a war in their country. That hasn’t happened too often in the last 1000 years or so, and I’m sure that quite a few of our ancestors would have considered it all that one could reasonably ask for.

17

Barney Frank of Massachussetts is an openly gay member of Congress. Geraldine Ferraro was a past Democratic vice-presidential candidate. Colin Powell could have mounted a very credible campaign for the Republican nomination for president, but elected not to do so. Anyone want to bet against Condi Rice being on the ticket at some point in the future?

They saying that “anyone can grow up to be President” is very true. Truman was a haberdasher. Carter a farmer. Nixon, Reagan, and Clinton were from poor families. Kennedy’s family was wealthy, but his great-grandfather arrived in this country penniless. Many members of Congress are rich, but many if not most of those came from middle- or lower-class backgrounds and became rich on their own.

Yes, Bush, Gore, and Kerry come from privlidged backgrounds. We shouldn’t hold that handicap against them.

18

I’m south american… but having lived in the US and Europe, as well as studied in American Schools for a long time I think my opinion is valid.

Americans are usually very competitive and though most put them as being "greedy" or "consumerist" I feel its more about being hard working and being competitive. Competitive in the sense of being a "Winner". Not being a loser seems a big time worry for many americans. In high school I had the distinct impression that good grades were only good if they were better than other peoples grades. Spending money and having flashy stuff is just the sure sign of the "winner".

 On the other hand I do have american relatives and maybe their brazilian side took its toll and they seem pretty content with having a good life without running after the big bucks. Its hard for everyone to be a big time winner... so I suppose most are content with their lot. 

 Europeans do seek "status" jobs... which sometimes do not have a similar monetary result. Germans especially seem to like the idea of a society with a lot of equality.
19

The ‘American Dream’ is characterized by the following:

-Owning your own house
-Working in a fullfilling and successful career (ideally owning your own business)
-Sending your kids to college so they can be successful
-Raising a good family

We are a lot more competitive here in the US because the flip side of being able to succceed as far as your abilities and ambition can take you is that no one is going to support you.

Unfortunately, I think this competitiveness over what is essentially unimportant work (what is so important in the business world that I have to work until midnight on Saturday?) has led to a society of people seeking fulfullment from something that cannot fullfill them. I don’t know how many people I’ve worked with who say “I’d really rather do this or that” and then say they can’t because it would take them off their ‘career path’. Kind of like one of those monkeys with its fist stuck in a trap.

I am not an expert on Europe but my understanding is that Europeans do not value entrepreneurship as much as we do here in the US. For that reason, you see a lot more socialized services, greater unemployment benefits. The downside is that these things are a drain on the European economy, however, since they don’t seem to be as concerned about making a shitload of money by the time they turn 30, I guess its not a big deal for them.
This is in contrast to the ‘Japanese Dream’ of devoting your life to your company and buying really cool electronic gadgets.

20

Yes but how many of them were black? Or even - how many of them were women - 50% of the population have never had an American President chosen from their ranks.

I don’t belive in your so-called ‘meritocracy’. It’s just an ideal but it’s not real and probably never will be. The fact is that corruption will never cease to exist and there will always be poor people for whom life is a struggle. For every one millionaire who came from nothing I’d say there are hundreds who got that way through having a privileged upbringing, expensive education and 'contact’s who have opened doors to them that might have been closed to others. Snobbery exists everywhere - even in the USA.

I would agree with the person who said earlier that if there is a ‘european dream’ it would probably be more a dream for prosperity and peace for everyone and security above all.

I think the US is a great country in many ways - mainly due to the energy, friendliness and positivity of it’s people (in my experience anyway) but I don’t think I could work there - you have much less job security. People can be hired and fired in seemingly cruel and groundless ways. You have so few holidays and have to work SO hard because of the fierce competition (I know this is probably not so in all careers but generally I believe this to be true).

Maybe a dream for everyone to be safe and ‘middleclass’ is equally unrealistic as a dream where everyone has equal opportunity to succeed. Both deny human nature. The eternal existence of human greed means there will always be those who will strive to have more than others and others will be exploited as a consequence. For there to be rich people, there have to be poor people and I think, in Western society it is much harder for those born and brought up destitue to become wealthy than for those born and brought up wealthy to become destitute.