I posted in Do you you support the war? By sex and age this time. - In My Humble Opinion - Straight Dope Message Board that I didn’t particulary like american’s, mostly to warn that I’m biased at the subject. I once tried to explain why I dislike the american culture to some american’s in a chatroom. I never got the message through though. So this time I am going to listen to whatever arguments you may have, and then I might revise my idea’s.
Things I dislike;
‘The american dream’ where happiness can be archieved by owning a lot off things.
I really really really can’t stand bush, and some people voted for him in america…
Polluting the earth to advance your own economy and basically waisting resources (HUGE spending off electricity/fossile fuells).
There are some more smaller concerns I have, but these are the major ones. So please prove me wrong on all accounts, I got most off my image about america from movies and the journaal/newspapers which is probably off base.
Ps. This is not meant to offend any american’s, I don’t dislike you personally.
Owning lots of things to make you happy- what exactly is wrong with that?
A politician you don’t like. That occurs in a democracy. The people themselves are in a position to change that if they wish.
Use of resources- what country doesn’t?
The Americans I have encountered have been largely extremely generous, warm people. Extremely patriotic. I am sure there are plenty who are assholes. So are many Australians.
Saying that the American Dream is about owning things is a rather recent corruption of what it originally stood for
wiki link
Do Americans own lots of stuff? Sure we do. But you know what? I didn’t see the Dutch living in mud huts the last time I was in your country. The Dutch are consumers also.
We don’t inherit an asshole for a king*, we get to elect our assholes. If you read a little of our history we had a slight disagreement with England over that back in 1776. Do we always elect the best guy? Probably not, but it is not a lifetime gig. We will have a new president soon, and then you can hate him also.
As far as cars and energy goes, the traffic jams I have seen in Amsterdam make LA’s look easy. Yes you guys do drive smaller cars, but our cars have been getting smaller over the years, and more fuel efficient.
There are two things I would like you to do. First off go read this thread it was written by one of your countrymen and is considered a classic around this board. Read the comments made by some of these people you hate.
Secondly, you might want to re-think your position. Labeling every person of a large group with the same broad brush is not a sign of intelligence.
*I’m not saying that any particular king sitting anywhere is an asshole; I am just making a point.
The difference isn’t that the Dutch live in mudhuts. The difference is that the American dream seems to be only about money and owning things. It’s not about owning a car to drive, but owning the latest model, and buying a new one every year to impress the neighbors. It’s not important to have a good job where you are doing your best, but only having a high-figure yearly salary. And so on - there is less concern about other aspects of life in the current American Dream.
As for Bush - yes, other countries elect stupid people, too. But Bush’s stupid politics affect a lot of other countries. A stupid premierminister in Dutch doesn’t attack other countries. Netherlands hasn’t propped up or installed through covert operations military or right-wing dictatorships in Latin American countries in the last 50 years. Link here
Most European countries have been involved in real developmental aid with the honest purpose and long-term comitment of enabling the third-world-countries to stand on their own feet since the 70s, and have made progress. The US has always only helped with self-interest, often causing problems in the receiving countries, often leaving turmoil when moving out too quickly (Afghanistan was left on its own in the 80s, with no attempt at rebuilding a society; several countries in Africa were left to their own problems caused by covert meddling in the first place.)
And European countries are aware of the limited resources, and try alternative energies, and have strict pollution protocols. It’s the US that hasn’t signed even something as harmless as the Kyoto protocol (which is the minimum first, not the last, step to battle pollution.)
So yes, there’s a difference between the US using ressources like there’s no tomorrow, and other countries trying to be responisble.
There’s a difference between the US treating the rest of the world like their own backyard, where they can take what they want because they are strong enough; and other countries helping honestly.
There’s a difference between buying what’s necessary for a normal life and knowing about other aspects that are important in life; and being obssessed about money, material things and impressing your neighbors while ignoring or not paying attention to other aspects.
Now, if you hate every American you haven’t met, that’s irrational. If you hate these aspects of American culture, politics and behaviour of the majority of the US population/behaviour of the US as country, then I find that reasonable.
As long as you remember that there are many Americans who fight against pollution, who care about other things than money, who are opposed to Bush and the current politics of the admin. … then I don’t see trouble.
First, I believe, what you dislike is our media. It tells us we must own stuff to be happy, when in fact, most people, not just Americans, are happy whether thay have the stuff that we’re told to have to be happy. Besides that, many of the people that have all the stuff, are less happy than the rest of us.
Quite a few of us don’t like Bush either. More people liked him when he was elected than do now, I believe.
We have, as a nation, wasted resorces, I admit. Most individuals try to be environmentally conscious, big business, however, is often a different story.
[sub]Just a little criticism though, the preposition “of” has only one “f”[/sub]
The American Dream is maybe partially about owning your own house, but it’s way moreso about family and living in general comfort, happiness, and freedom.
99% of us could give a fuck what the neighbors drive.
The single most telling word in what I quoted above is in the second sentence “seems”. Seems does not mean this is how it is, seems is your perception. the reality is that most Americans work hard, and don’t trade in their car every year or two. We go to work and bust our ass to do the best job we know how. If we can get a high salary for this, where is the harm in that? If I am going to sell my body / or brains I am going to get as much as I can for them. Can you tell me you wouldn’t?
I don’t know where you are from, but I think you have seen too much American movies and television and don’t fully understand what America is about, and what Americans are like.
I guess I shouldn’t feel bad, I have a friend in Sweden that when he travels people seem to think that in the summer the streets of his city are covered in topless super models, and in the winter polar bears walk the streets. neither of these are reality. (Damn it!)
Bottom line is you need to get past the perception and see the reality.
I talked about the last 50 years. The Netherlands haven’t had colonies in the last 50 years that I’m aware of, and they haven’t meddled in other countries - ex-colonies or not - the way the US has.
Of course I would like to get a higher salary than the current one. That’s not what I was trying to say. How much respect does the majority of Americans have for people who are good at a low-paid job, and decide to stay there, because they are good, instead of going into a higher-paid one?
I’m from Germany, and I not only watch TV reports (though series are good for those details of a culture that are “assumed” - everybody knows that - only not everybody outside your culture does) and interviews with Americans, but also … talk to Americans on Messageboards (which is, of course, not a representative sample.) And it’s no surprise to hear a majority of Americans on messageboards to measure everything only after its monetary value in a discussion - how much is a life worth? How much would this cost? - Yes, that may be the reality in America. But it’s not the automatic first response over here, where we think life has a non-momentary value.
Whose reality? How many typical Americans do you know - don’t your friends belong to a specific social circle and class?
The idea that money and ‘stuff’ (for lack off a better word) can make you happy.
Ah quite true, what politicians are elected does say something about the culture and general attitude of the majority of people.
America has a tendency to spend very large quantities of resources, or thats my idea atleast. Big cars, big burgers, big houses, big roads, large city’s etc… Thats the idea I get.
I never said that any particular individual was ‘bad’ or ‘evil’ person. I am 100% positive that some of the greatest people in the world are americans. I dislike american cultue and society in general.
I never knew this, quite interesting. I am not talking about the ‘American Dream’ in particular but the idea it stands for today.
I’ll read the thread in a few minutes.
If I didn’t want to re-think my position I wouldn’t have made this post. And I am not labeling persons at all, I am labeling your culture, politics and behaviour.
That might be the case, I have nothing to go on but what I get from the media.
Well I guess it goes for both of us than that we need to look more critical at our own society.
Actually earthly possesions aren’t that important in the netherlands atleast. Now I don’t have a huge sample size (only the people I know) but we value family and social contacts over earthly possesions. I have always been teached that a job you enjoy is a 1000 times better than a job you hate but makes more money.
I don’t particulary like him as a person either, but he does do a good job.
If you read the article several prominent people note that something needs to be done. America doesn’t even acknowledge the problem.
There’s a difference between The American Dream and Keeping Up With The Joneses.
Actually, I heard it was buying a new car every two years. But the references I’ve heard refer to an ideal 40 or 50 years out of date. I’ll admit to once owning a car many people would find ‘impressive’; but I didn’t get it to impress people. I got it because it was fun to drive. I didn’t get my first new car until 1999, and I’m still driving it. I don’t personally know anyone who buys a car every two years. Yes, there are a lot of people who buy cars for ‘image’. But it’s the same in many countries. I’ve heard there is a ‘hierarchy’ on the Autobahn, with a pecking order from Porsches to Mercedes Benz to BMW and on down to whatever. Personally I can think of more European ‘supercars’ than I can American ones.
What do you mean, ‘things’? Cars are a necessity here, since public transportation is lacking in most places. One doesn’t need to own a house, but what’s wrong with owning one? Televisions? I think most people in developed countries have a TV. What are these ‘things’ that you mention?
Do ‘things’ bring happiness? I have a lot of books, and they make me happy. Is it wrong to enjoy reading, and to be able to re-read something any time I feel like it? Is a stamp collector doing something wrong by indulging in his hobby? Maybe I’m atypical, but having a lot of ‘things’ is not what makes me happy. Having carefully chosen things that I enjoy does make me happy. It’s about quality, not quantity.
On the other hand…
I was at the office several years ago when I heard two women discussing someone in the NY office. ‘He has an office! He’s not even a manager. Why does he have an office?’ As if someone 3,000 miles away has any bearing on their jobs. And I’ve worked with people who had to have the right car and had to live in the right city and had to wear the right clothes. They seemed to be obsessed with status. I imagined that they were dead, but their bodies didn’t know it. They spent so much time being concerned about their image that they didn’t live.
But who am I to judge? It’s not my American Dream. I think they’re silly, but it’s their lives.
As for a high-paying job: I’m currently employed in a high-stress environment. The pay is not outrageous, but it’s more than a lot of people make. It’s not my American Dream. I’d much rather be happy. My house is in a beautiful part of the country, with a climate I prefer. I’d gladly trade half of my salary to move back into my house where I can do the things I enjoy and live where I want to live. Only I made a decision to exile myself for a year in order to A) build up my savings (money doesn’t necessarily buy happiness, but it does come in handy) and B) to gain experience that may be useful later. It remains to be seen if I will put up with the stress and long hours until mid-May, but that’s the plan. Whether I quit in three months or nine, I’d be quite happy sweeping floors in a grocery store or doing data entry in some business if it allows me to live my modest life. I don’t give a damn what people think about what I drive, what I wear, or if I have the latest consumer items.
I don’t think the American Dream is about having lots of ‘things’ and trying to impress people. I think the American Dream is simply to have a home and to be free from undue worry. A roof over one’s head, food on the table, and the ability to enjoy life. What’s wrong with that?
As for Monkey Boy, half of us voted for the other guy. More than half of us disagree with his policies. Unfortunately we’re stuck with him for another 28 months.
I like America and Americans in general. Sure there are bound to be assholes no matter where you go or where you live but to hate a WHOLE country and its citizens is utter stupidity. The sort of stupidity that breeds hate and hate breeds war.
I’ve visited the USA many times, I’ve pals in Rhode Island,Illinois, Alabama, Michigan and any number of other states.
Only ** once** have I ever met an American who was less than friendly and he was drunk so I guess that excuses him.
Americans IMHO are the friendliest and most generous people it has ever been my pleasure to meet and this includes my own countrymen.
To anybody who hates the USA and its citizens I say ‘Take your dislike elsewhere’ and for heavens sake do not be influenced by the stuff you read and hear about, go visit the USA.I’m certain you’ll come back to your homeland with an entirely different opinion.
See, here is proof you just don’t get it. You either didn’t read the quote I put in post #3 or did not comprehend it.
Americans are not slaves or indentured servants. (We fought a war over that one also) If we have a low paying job, we can either choose to stay (many people do) or we have the freedom to try for a higher paying job. Take my own case. I was an automotive technician. A damn good one. I never had any problems with anyone not respecting me or my abilities. My last day at one dealership, I said goodbye to a good customer, a bank president. When I told him I was leaving, he told me that he had to layoff 5 people that day, but my leaving the dealership was worse. I took that as a compliment of the highest order. A bank president was complementing me, a guy with a greasy shirt, and dirt under his fingernails. After being a technician for several years, an opening came up working for the factory. I applied and was accepted. I now make well over twice what I made as a technician. I still get respect, and I give respect when it is earned. Most Americans do.
:rolleyes: Please tell me this was a joke. I was born and have lived my entire life in the US, how ocld you believe that I don’t know typical Americans?
Look I grew up in a middle class neighborhood in a family where my father worked with common workmen everyday (He was a foreman on big construction jobs). He never dissed his workmen; he took many of them with him as he moved from job to job. My high school was majority Hispanic lower middle class. None of us dissed each other. Hell the family of my first real girlfriend was flat out poor. This did not make any difference to me.
BTW she is the only person I have kept in touch with over the years. She is another example of the American Dream. She grew up poor, went to college on scholarships, and got a masters degree. She got a job working for the Sate of Arizona and owns her own home. She started with nothing and now is very successful. No she doesn’t buy a new car every year, and could give a shit what the neighbors think.
Over the years I have held jobs such as digging ditches, pumping gas, fixing cars, selling tires and auto parts and now I am an instructor for a car company. I deal with a range of guys that go from fresh out of school making maybe 25K a year to some super stars making 125K+ per year. Furthermore I travel all over the United States doing what I do. So I think I can say that yes, I know quite a few “average” Americans.
As far as my social circle goes, I have friends of all ethnicity’s. I have friends that own their own businesses. I have doctors and lawyers as friends. I also have auto technicians, secretaries, and workmen as my friends.
Just a reminder 90210, Dallas, and Dynasty are not documentaries.
On preview, What Johnny said. BTW I consider him a good friend IRL as well as on line.
Well reading all of this I might need to revise my opinion regarding americans. In my view they have always been egocentric people that measured people by how much they have to spend. It appears I couldn’t be more wrong…
As I said from the beginning that I only got my info from the media, which is probably where it went wrong. Most things I see about america are the direct opposite of my own principles and idea’s. I’m glad I started this thread, I might actually visit america someday. You people got me curious…
Ps. I realize now I’ve been naïeve, ah well still young and a lifetime to learn from my mistakes.
Well there’s your problem. You need a much bigger and more expensive sample size, like all Americans have. 'Course, many of us simply inherited ours, but there’s still room in this country for a guy who, pursuing the American Dream, can work and toil and earn enough money to buy a weapon that will kill someone else so we can take his (or her, no sex-discrimination here, nosirree) sample size, add it to our own, and thereby compete in the world demonize-your-neighbor championship cup tournament.
Americans have, thanks to their partly fortuitously and partly ill-acquired and partly honestly-gained wealth, and partly attributable to the industry and wit and intelligence and luck of the Native and European and African and Asian and South American and Indian peoples who constitute, well, us, have been for decades in a position to instantly influence the entire planet, for good or ill. Our mistakes, therefore, have been huge, our indifference tragic, and our rare instances of clearheaded and unselfish action sublime. This is just what happens when your reach can potentially either fix or break everything on the planet. No country before ours has had the potential for benefitting or for harming the rest of the globe on the scale that we now contemplate, or has ever perforce been faced with the politically impossible necessity of putting the needs of other peoples before its own. We don’t do it well. We’ve gone nearly a decade without doing it at all. We’ve compounded problems by acting on perceptions that don’t even serve our own needs. We have little moral or objective claim, given our history, on the power and authority (the former increases constantly; the latter wanes as our current government continues to squander it) we still have. But we can’t see a practical or ethical reason to cede it to anyone else, either. We were on the right side in the major ideological struggle of the 20th century: whether man should be ruled by fascism or state-based communism or one-man-one-vote-style democracy. We were not alone, but we assumed a very large share of the cost (and virtually all the opprobrium) with wit and will and enthusiasm. Some of us, then or later, realized how much we had compromised our ideals in order to serve them, and many of us were either ashamed or angry. The effects still linger, and make our elections hard to understand sometimes.
We use a lot of resources, that’s true. Chances are you’re not totally divorced from whatever goods and services we use them to produce. I just shut off two appliances. Your move.
What percentage of Americans buy a new car every year, honestly? Maybe one tenth of one percent? Less?
It’s easy to dislike people when you just make shit up about them.
Horseshit. Western countries - be they European or otherwise - help Third World countries entirely out of pure self-interest. International aid from any Western country is heavily conditional.
You’re joking, right? Do you, um, even remember which country “moved out of” Afghanistan in the 80s?
Again, I assume you’re just jerking our chains. Africa is entirely, one hundred percent EUROPE’S fault. Europe colonized Africa, Europe killed Africans by the zillions, and Europe pulled out in the post-war period and left famine and tyranny in their wake.
I think you missed my last post. As I said these posts where mostly based on conclusions that I got from the media. These where apparantly completely of base. I was raised with the idea that money is usefull but seeking happiness good family and friendship should be the goal. While growing up I noticed how americans in particular where doing the exact opposite, or so it appeared to me from the info I get from the media. I had nothing else to go on, so I posted here to see what other peoples opinions are regarding this.
