Your concepts of God and Jesus remind me of the old question about whether an omnipotent God could create a stone so heavy that he could not lift it.
I’m not sure if this is going to make any sense whatsoever, and as a person whose theological knowledge of both Judaism and Christianity can most politely be described as “extremely limited,” maybe I’m delving too deep, here, but here goes:
From a Christian point of view (or, perhaps more to the point, from your own personal Christian point of view), prisoner6655321 –
Could an jealous, wrathful and omnipotent God such as you describe create (or become, if you prefer) a being capable of more “selflessness” (which, in this case, I read as “compassion”) than He, Himself, posessed? If one subscribes to the idea that Jesus posessed a measure of divinity, and was, in some fashion and as some believe, simultaneously “God” and “the son of God,” it seems hard to explain Jesus’ possession of a level of compassion which God (in His original form, as it were) lacked. It seems to suggest that it was the human element which added compassion to God’s makeup via Jesus! (The fact that God could create, say, an animal with antlers while not himself sporting a fine rack is not the same thing, in my book. Antlers are a superficial physical attribute, while the presence or absence of compassion is kind of a big deal when you’re dealing with deities.)
Assuming that I’m not the only one who has the faintest idea what it is that I am babbling about, is this as weird an idea as it sounds to me?
I’m not trying to be a wiseass here, but I don’t know how people would reconcile themselves to this (apparent) difficulty.
Or the Christian God, either. To start with, the Christian God is a Holy Trinity of which Jesus is one Person. Second, consider what John 3:16-17 have to say about what God’s motivation is. (There’s a reason it’s one of the most quoted verses in the Bible.)
Utterly confusing me, and illogical.
How can Jesus be completely selfless, and God not be, if they are supposed to be the same being or person.
Unless, of course, God has multiple personalities?
I appreciate the struggling with this difficult issue. I know it’s hard to understand. Fact is, it is illogical. We will understand when we reach Heaven. Really Christians have little difficulty in believing things that don’t make logical sense. That’s what faith is all about.
Maybe God does have multiple personalities. And what would be wrong with that? Would that help you to reconcile these differences? As long as you don’t think he’s mentally unstable. Even if he did have multiple personalities, it wouldn’t threaten my faith. Just like God raining down fire and brimstone on Soddom and Gomorrah doesn’t affect my faith and love in him. All that matters is that I believe in Him and Christ, and it would be nice if I used Christ’s love as an example.
Well, let’s take a look at the meaning of “selfless”. A Selfless being is by definition a being that is not aware of its own existence. It would not think in terms of “I” but in terms of “It”. No thinking human being can therefore be entirely selfless. Any being that is capable of understanding human thought (That would include God in theory) could not be selfless.
Well, that answers your question. Guess the mods will have no choice but to move this thread to GQ ;D
Before we get way off track here, note that God classically wasn’t so much jealous as he was “very not amused” about certain things. Admit it - if you gave your cousin money, a job, a house, and a car - and that cousin publicly applauded someone else for giving him those things - you’d be pissed. What the Israelites sometimes did waws much, much, much worse.
God as pretty wrathful. But he did let them do bad things for a very long time before pulling out the fire and brimstone, unless they did something really bad.
Exodus 20:5
“Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;”
Exodus 34:14
“For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:”
Deuteronomy 4:24
“For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.”
I’m having trouble with the jealous, wrathful God. I was raised Catholic and the God they told us about was an all-loving, all-forgiving God. If I believed in God, that is the one I would like to think existed.
When I was younger I always imagined him as a nice, wise old grandpa type. And funny. I always thought he would be hilarious.
In any case, I don’t understand why God would be jealous or wrathful.
And what would a nice wise old grandpa do if his children & grandchildren turned against him & enslaved themselved to pimps & pushers?
He, full of righteous & loving jealousy, would come to get his family back & would come down on the pimps & pushers with great wrath & furious anger and they would know his name is the LORD.
The Biblical words translated “Jealous”, actually mean “Zealous, Passionate”- we belong to God & God doesn’t like it when we sell ourselves to lesser things. When He can, He will focus His wrath on those we’ve sold out to, but when we’ve entwined ourselves to our captors, He has no choice but to give us a taste of that wrath.
Now, in OT times, Israel- having closer encounters with God that most other nations- would be more liable to direct tastes of His Wrath. These days, we would more likely experience God’s Wrath by His letting us get what we deserve for a while before rescuing us out of it.
In local news (the SE Indiana-SW Ohio-N Ky area), an 11yo girl was killed by meth dealers who thought she might turn them in (fortunately, they apparently didn’t do anything else to her); and a man in his early 20s raped & killed his 3 1/2yo stepsister. In US news, a couple who adopted & tortured seven kids have recently been arrested. One can rightly question why a good & powerful God would even allow such crap. But assuming that permitting free will means that such things will happen, any God who does exist & is worth worshipping is definitely gonna get wrathful with those monsters.
Another way of looking at it- using the God is Fire analogy, Fire brings warmth & cooks food & gives light, but use it wrongly & it will burn your butt. God gives comfort & strength, nourishes our spirits, guides us- but defy Him & risk encountering His backhand.
First polycarps verse shows that God can be selfless, as he gave up his son to us to save the world “his only begotten son”
Second, I have long been of the impression that God has multiple personalities. He is angry smitful one minute, helpful and forgiving the next. Then there is the holy trinity of the God the Father, God the Son (jesus), and God the Holy Spirit. Wow talk about a split personality. :eek:
Oh look and the word believe means: “1 a : to have a firm religious faith b : to accept as true, genuine, or real” according to merriamwebster as well
but that is from a different religion discussion thread …
Selflessness doesn’t mean to be taken to the extreme of absence of self. Surely someone can perfom a selfless act for someone(assuming that such is actually possible) without losing touch of themselves.
I say the bigger question is if it is possible to actually perform a selfless act. Even supposedly selfless act has some sort of reward. example- the man fell on the grenade, because he wanted his friends to be saved, which was his reward.
Likewise, I would say that only God would be capable of being selfless, and only then IF he is completely indifferent to what happens within the universe, because as soon as he takes interest, he is acting out of self interest on some level.
I think the point to be made here is that enlightened self interest can be a very good thing.
God was perceived as jealous and wrathful in the old testment due to the times. Social views and society put a very large impact on peoples view of God. Due to the fact that life was very harsh and hard in the old testament, that is how they percieved God.
When reading the bible you can see the “evolution” of God as it progresses, which essentially is the evolution of society.
Interesting observation and I can sort of agree except for one thing.
With the evolution of God came Jesus, who was kind and forgiving. Jesus may have been that way, but mankind as a whole is not. So much for evolution.
The missing link has already been found, but nobody cares to look in the right place.
I’m sorry, but that’s not true. If mankind is not kind and forgiving, and was not 2000 years ago, then how do you explain the ideals of justice? The very idea that fairness exists and that people should be fair proves that mankind wants to be good.
