Now, I base this thread on the assumption that God exists. As an agnostic, I am willing to assume, because there has been no factual evidence to the contrary, that He can exist.
Now for my question. Is there a such thing as a truly selfless act? I will use the Catholic St. Theresa the Little flower as an example. Everything she did seemed to be for her fellow human beings, to help bring them to the kingdom of God. She prayed, she suffered, she humbled herself, all supposedly to save souls from going to hell.
But, would she have suffered as she did, been as selfless as she was, if God had said to her that no matter what she did, no matter how much she loved God, He would not return her love and would send her to hell. Would she still have suffered the same for her God? I doubt it.
Also, if there is a God, and He wants us to love him, serve him, no matter how much we suffer, is that not selfish? Why does God, if He does exist, want to share heaven with us? Because He is selfless? Nah…I don’t think so. Evidently, He’s lonely. He wants our love. He wants to be adored by us in His kingdom. That’s selfish.
This presupposes that God is only in Heaven and that He is unable to see/hear/be with us outside of it. This does not fit in with our traditional definition of God.
Okay, then even if God is outside of heaven, why did he create us? I did not ask to be created. That was God’s decision. In other words, He did not create me because I asked to be here, and He selflessly wanted to comply with my wishes. He created me for His own purposes.
According to the Bible, and correct me if I am wrong, we are created in the image of God.
I was raised Catholic, and I got into this debate with my mother. She is always telling me how important it is to be selfless, and that people are sainted because they act selflessly.
Now, I see two fallacies here. If we are created in the image of God, and God is not selfless, than neither should we be. The second is that from the way I see it, saints are not selfless. They do what they do to please God, to get into heaven. If a person was going to end up in hell, and they knew that fact, and no amount of good deeds would change their fate, I don’t believe they would be as inclined to perform those good deeds.
We give to others what we want for ourselves. In being selfless, we are selfish.
Hope I am making sense here. I was just trying to show my mother that being selfish is not a bad thing.
"Made in God’s image is a nice statement, but what does that mean? Does it mean that God has two eyes, two arms and two legs? Does it mean that I physically resemble God? Does it mean that I have to aspire to God’s attributes?
You state that “If we are created in the image of God, and God is not selfless, than neither should we be.” But God is also omnipotent. Does that mean that we should be omnipotent? God doesn’t sleep. Does that mean that we should make every attempt to stay up for the rest of our lives?
In short, you have to reflect and determine what, exactly, “made in God’s image” means.
My personal opinion here: No one can be entirely selfless. We all have wants and needs. Heck, every time I chow down a piece of food I am (potentially) depriving some other more-needy person of it. Should I never eat again until all the hungry have been fed?
There is no reason that (within reason, of course) one’s wants, needs and desires can’t be fulfilled. But one must temper that with consideration for others. Hillel, a Jewish sage of about 2200 years ago said it best (IMHO). He said “If I am not for me, who will be for me? But if I am (solely) for myself, then what am I?”
You can certainly fulfill your needs and wants without feeling guilty about it. But you have to temper that with consideration for others’ needs, wants and desires as well. Finding the right point in that balance is important.
Being selfless - charity - is as much a social construct as a religious one, and it is IMO essentially based upon the realisation that ‘someday, that might be me or someone about whom I care’ or ‘that was me’. It’s like paying insurance. And it has a positive effect on society by increasing order and preventing criminality. That child you sponsor might grow up to be a doctor and make a discovery which saves the life of your own child. Pay for a teacher and the children will be in school, and not running amok stealing from orchards and shopkeepers.
The virtue of “Selflessness” has been highly exaggerated (thought one Russian-born writer exagerrated also on the virtue of Selfishness ). We are to be charitable, giving, considerate to others over our selves and to God above all,
but we’re not really expected to be “self-less”, in a Buddhist nirvanic or a self-loathing sort of way.
And to cite that writer- “There can be no such thing as self-sacrifice. The self is the one thing that should never be sacrificed.”
Yes, and this is what I wanted to get across to my mother. When I do something kind for somebody else, part of the reason is because it make ME feel good. Also, I would like that person to do something kind for me as well.
That is why I don’t think there is any such thing as a “selfless” act.
But would that same guy throw himself on a grenade for his enemies?
And even if he would, why? Some sort of promise of glory after death? He must expect to get something out of it.
Not necessarily. He is protecting people that MIGHT do the same for him. Besides, are you seriously suggesting that a soldier would not hurl himself onto a grenade unless he knew full well that his compatriots would reciprocate in kind.
And even if that were true, the point remains – at that moment, he is gaining absolutely nothing from his act, and he is losing everything. The mere hypothetical possibility of reciprocal goodness does nothing to negate the selflessness of his action.
I have never read Ayn Rand. I don’t know her definition of selfishness.
I don’t believe in being entirely selfish, but nor do I believe in being entirely selfless.
To use quote from the Bible: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.”
In other words, I would not intentionally harm someone because I do not want to be harmed myself.
That is how I can know, logically, that it is wrong to hurt someone else. Because I understand how it feels myself to be hurt.
If I was selfless, and did not value my own life, I would not value anybody else’s life.
To answer your title: Jesus was completely selfless. God is not. He is jealous and wrathful. He desires our worship. Of course he deserves it. He made me so I don’t mind.
). We are to be charitable, giving, considerate to others over our selves and to God above all,