For the OP: some atheists are arrogant, some aren’t, just as the adherents of any other belief… philosophy… whatever
I try not to be one of the arrogant atheists, although I guess, deep down, I am.
Why am I arrogant? Because I honestly believe that billions and billions of people are wrong. Are they definitely wrong about the existance of a god or gods? No. But they’re wrong to make it a topic that matters any more than the “red herring” IPU. The IPU is not a red herring. God or gods or god forces or whatever don’t deserve any more consideration of the IPU, and yet we claim on our money that we trust in him/her/it/whatever.
Of course, I fail all the time, and actually give the topic some consideration–far more than I’ve ever given to IPUs or faeries or leprechauns. That’s my concession to those billions and billions of people; I’m hoping there’s a reason they believe what they do, so I keep coming back to hear what they have to say. None of it convinces me, but I’ll keep checking.
Careful there pal, as a bald atheist myself, I resemble that remark!
Wisecrack aside, kudos to you for the yeoman’s work you’ve done in this thread. I honestly can’t make heads or tails of Zagadka’s “rebuttals.”
If a person, atheist or no, says “There is no such thing as God.” That person is making an irrational statement since there is no way to prove or disprove the statement. This can be taken as arrogant: one who thinks he knows the unknowable. But more likely it is due to not understanding the problem.
Some atheists, however, really believe that they have superior knowledge by not believing in God, and talk about those that do as ignorant, crazy, naive, or some other condescending manner. These people are very likely to be labeled arrogant.
I often hear about all the evidence that God doesn’t exist, but never see it.
In other theads we have established no one knows where the first material or energy came from, so our origins are unknowable no matter how much evidence exists as to how this material became earth and/or mankind. We are all in the dark here and are likely to remain so.
I think the rule of respect is to be followed, everyone is entitled to their beliefs.
But then beliefs can and do harm people, mostly the ones that hold these beliefs. So in the end it is very tricky, these relationships we have with others. We need to measure carefully what we say to others. Be kind and understanding, not condescending.
Well, I wouldn’t say “superior knowledge”, since my position is that we don’t know, and therefore should default to non-belief (just as we default to non-belief for anything else we don’t know, such as whether there is an undetectable dog sitting next to me right now; I don’t assume he’s there and then look for evidence to prove it). But yes, I think I’m right and theists are wrong… just as theists think they’re right and I’m wrong, and think their branch of theism is right and others are wrong. That’s what it means to have an opinion on a matter. When atheists have an opinion, they’re arrogant, because it’s in the minority.
I don’t know of any. There might be evidence against specific descriptions of God, but there’s no way to prove that there isn’t SOME kind of supernatural being out there… just as it’s impossible to prove that there isn’t an undetectable dog sitting next to me. I’ll default to a lack of belief again until I see the evidence FOR such existance.
Just because we don’t know, that doesn’t mean we should make up an explanation. Theists assume a God existed without a source, atheists assume the universe exists without a source. Why multiply entities?
I absolutely agree with this statement. I kinda wish everyone believed (or didn’t believe) what I believe, but if they aren’t directly hurting anyone (other than themselves; if they hurt themselves, that’s their problem, not mine), then they’re free to believe what they want.
Strictly speaking, this is correct. But only if you assume an unreasonable standard of strictness. What if I said “There is no such thing as Santa Claus” or “There is no such thing as bigfoot” or “There are no such things as fairies”? I should technically say “I haven’t seen any evidence for bigfoot, so I cannot know for certain.” Would that be better?
I don’t think so. Saying “there is no such thing as God” is a perfectly good way to say it.
I have never, in my 42 years, ever heard anyone say, or seen anyone write, that anyone has evidence that God doesn’t exist. Have you?
This is exactly where faith comes into the equation. Some people actually derive some utility out of having faith in something about which they don’t know. Some may call it a placebo effect, but if it creates internal peace, goodwill towards others, and a myriad of other positive effects, then faith becomes something of value. How does that make them wrong? Sure, it may be your opinion that their faith is misguided, but is it also your opinion that they’re wrong to embrace faith for benefit they derive from faith? Would you rather they deny faith altogether and find some other reason to be fulfilled? The potential fallout from denial of faith can be rather devastating to some people.
That being said, I personally resent when someone who does embrace faith, for whatever reason, considers another, who does not embrace faith, as wrong, misguided, what have you. Either way, it’s a method of forcing on others what works for you as if you know what’s good for them. Arrogance essentially knows no philosophical/religious bounds.
The point is what’s right for you, isn’t necessarily right for someone else. All of us are individuals with different priorities and experiences. I believe it’s more important to feel personally comfortable with what makes better people than make other people comfortable with how we came to be who we are. Some of us have rougher roads than others.
Why not? And why not? Whatever floats your boat, right? The only reason I can see why not to find one’s own explanation is if one plans to use it to denigrate, in any way, another human being. That is what’s wrong.
I still don’t understand how they are hurting themselves if it doesn’t hurt another and it provides them with peace, direction in life, etc.
I thought this thread was dead, but I’m pleased to see that we’re finally coming to enlightening conclusion. Live and let live, as they say.
I think the world would be better off if society as a whole quit relying on what I see as superstition and dealt with problems in the real world… but I’d never force anyone to give up their faith, and I don’t expect much to change in my lifetime.
In this case, I think assuming a divine being holds back our search for the truth, whatever that may be. Of course, it’s not like every member of society has to be actively involved in that search, so it’s not a big deal… except when theists try to stop research because they’re afraid of what it might say or because it disagress with their doctrines (not a big issue anymore in cosmology, as far as I know).
I think I could have been a little less clear about what I meant if I’d tried… but wow was that sentence a mess.
What I meant is I don’t care if, however it happens, people hurt themselves with their belief, that doesn’t bug me. It’s when they start hurting others that I care.
"since my position is that we don’t know, and therefore should default to non-belief "
I would think it logical the default would be “we don’t know.” Anything else is not truth. Science seeks truth, or so I believed, once upon a time. Why is it so difficult to say “we don’t know” especially when “we don’t know.”
Oh yes, those invisible dogs and other things seldom create any controversy because there are no strong beliefs about them. While the beliefs for or against the existence of God create a good bit of animosity. Why would this be over something unknowable.
Yes, on the first paragraph. Science is all about standards of strictness, that is what makes it science in the first place. If we don’t know, then it is correct to say we don’t know. If we have an opinion, then say “it is my opinion” such and such. This following of truth would stop a lot of trouble before it starts, and show respect for truth.
No, I have never seen any evidence of the non-existent God.
