Is Azerbaijani Islam different?

Great Debates
1

Background: once a month, I host a dinner where the object is for guests to have the opportunity to practice their Russian. It attracts crazy, masochistic Americans like myself who have learned it by choice, as well as homesick native or quasi-native speakers.

A new attendee, who came for the first time last month and again last night, has made me curious about Islamic practice in Azerbaijan. He is Azeri, and was born in a small village, but lived most of his life in Baku. At the dinner, we generally order family-style, trying to make allowances for any dietary restrictions the guests have (whether they are vegetarians, or don’t eat pork, or whatever). I try to choose dinner locations based on a wide availability of food, and try to guide everyone’s orders in the same way.

Last month, we went to a tapas place, and I noticed that our Azeri friend wouldn’t eat many of the things we ordered, although we specifically avoided pork. (He doesn’t drink, either, and specifically avoided any dish that had been prepared with alcohol, even though with wine sauces, the alcohol boils off in the cooking process. But whatever, that’s his choice, and I respect it.) At first, I thought he was just a finicky eater, or was being cautious as he is unfamiliar with Spanish cuisine, since I don’t imagine Baku has many tapas joints.

Last night was at a Greek place, though, and he was again asking lots of questions about the ingredients in various dishes. I tried to figure out why he was asking, and it turns out he also doesn’t eat most seafood. I asked him why, and he said his religion prohibits it. This was news to me, as I’ve known quite a number of Muslims from various places and of various degrees of religious observance, but seafood restrictions were a new one for me. I asked him to elaborate, and he said he knew from his several years of Koran school that there were certain kinds of seafood that he was supposed to avoid, but he wasn’t sure of the details, so he generally avoids anything but normal, straightforward fishies. I asked if it was like the Jewish prohibition on eating sea creatures that don’t have both fins and scales, and he responded with the Russian equivalent of “yeah, yeah, that’s it!”

OK, so last night we stuck to the lamb and veggies, but what’s this seafood thing all about? I’ve never known another Muslim who had seafood issues, and I’ve certainly seen restaurants serving cuisine from primarily Muslim countries (Turkey, say) that serve seafood dishes. So is it an issue of regional practice? What’s the scoop?

2

It’s shellfish that’s the problem, not seafood.

3

And here’s an article about food trends in Azerbaijan

http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/83_folder/83_articles/83_islamic.html

4

Here’a an excerpt from webpage that goes into the issue of dietary restrictions for devout Muslims:

*e) Certain sea-creatures (according to some scholars)
“Lawful to you is the game of the sea and its food, as a provision for you.” [Qur’an, 5:96]
Based on this verse, and on the hadith:
“Its water is purifying and its carrion is lawful.” [Ibn Majah, Ibn Hibban, Daraqutni, Ahmad, al-Hakim]
some scholars, such as Imam Malik, considered all sea creatures to be lawful. The Hanafis, however, maintain that the permissibility of sea creatures is not absolute. According to a hadith, a doctor asked the Prophet (peace and blessings upon him) about using the frog in medicine, but that the Prophet (peace and blessings upon him) forbade killing it [Abu Dawud, Nasa’i, al-Hakim]. This indicates that not all aquatic creatures are lawful. They deduce further that it is specified by the hadith, “Two carrions have been made lawful to us, and two bloods. The two carrions are fish and locusts, and the two bloods are the liver and the spleen.” [Ibn Majah, Ahmad, Daraqutni, Bayhaqi] Hence, the Hanafis regard as impermissible any aquatic creature which is not termed a fish. There is some disagreement among them as to whether the shrimp is considered a fish.
There is agreement that lawful sea-creatures may be eaten without slaughter. There is disagreement, however, about fish which die a natural death (e.g. those that are found floating dead on the water). The Hanafis prohibit them, while the majority do not. *

From here: http://webpages.marshall.edu/~laher1/haram.html#15

In otherwords there is no unanimity on this issue.

To give an example as to just how complicated this can be, here is a list I cullled discussing some common foods/additive ( note: zabiha is meat that has been slaughtered according to Muslim ritual - It is analogous, but not identical to, kosher. ).

*Cholestorol: type of fat always of animal origin. If extracted from Zabiha animal, it is Halal.

Diglyceride: Emulsifier. If of animal origin it should be suspected till the source is known.

Gelatin (Jello Gelatin): Usually of animal origin, mostly from pig. If extracted from a Zabiha animal, then it is Halal.

Glycerol (Glycerine): It could be of animal, plant or Glyceryl-Stearate synthetic origin. If animal source is used, it is suspected.

Hormones: Usually animal hormones are used for human consumption. One has to find out the source before passing a judgement.

Lard: Fat from swine particulaly found in the abdominal cavity. Totally Haram for us.

Magnesium Stearate (stearic acid): Used as an active ingredient in medicine tablets. Haram when derived from animal source.

Mono Glycerides: When derived from animal source. (Halal when the source is plant).

Pepsin: A digestive enzyme mostly from pig stomach.

Rennin (Rennet): A protein Enzyme. Usually not labeled. (In most cheeses).

Shortening: Fats and oils of animal origin. Animal/Lard

Vanilla: Extracted using alcohol.

Vitamins: Haram when from animal source. Mostly the source is synthetic or plant and are Halal.

Whey: Used in ice creams and yogurt. Haram when from animal source.*

  • Tamerlane
5

Tamerlane will correct me if I’m wrong; however, IIRC, for Muslims travelling outside Muslim countries, “The food of the People of the Book is lawful” for them. That has been interpreted to mean Kosher food’s okay, but Gentile food’s not.

6

Tamerlane’s post is most informative. I was about to remark that Azerbaijan people follow the Hanafi school of jurisprudence (thinking Azerbaijanis are Turks, and Turks are Hanafis). But that would be wrong! The people of Azerbaijan (both the independent republic and the part in northwest Iran) are Shi‘ites. They follow the Ja‘fari school of jurisprudence. I do not know if the Ja‘fari school has the same restriction on seafood.

Monty, if you mean to say that Christians’ food is excluded, I’m skeptical. Christians count as People of the Book along with Jews. I know that you know it. I’m not sure what you meant by “Gentile.”

7

Well, Jomo. Try not to read extra into what I wrote. I know full well that the Koranic expression “People of the Book” means both Christians and Jews. I clearly stated above that the term “food of the people of the book” had been interpreted to mean kosher food. That very well might be why I mentioned that bit about gentile food not being okay, don’t youi think.

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I’m Azari myself. I just thought I’d throw that in. :wink:

9

Hmmm…I think it depends who you talk to Monty. Generally speaking those that accept that Christian and Jewish food are acceptable don’t always seem to distinguish much between the two ( though some may ). Those that don’t, obviously don’t distinguish much either ;). The passages from the Qur’an and hadith are just ambiguous enough on that point as to make it a fertile area for debate among some Muslim theologians. For example, see this page :

http://www.soundvision.com/Info/halalhealthy/maududi.asp

But even more liberal sources are inclined to prefer butchers over supermarkets for meat, for example, since there is uncertainty regarding as to how the meat was processed in the big chains. In addition to certain issues of technique ( like draining the blood ) Islam regards humane slaughter ( i.e. that which prevents unnecessary suffering in the animal being killed ) as very important. In this sense kosher butchers and plain meat labeled as having been slaughtered in a kosher fashion are probably considered a safer bet. However, processed food labeled as kosher are not necessarily okay, because the list of what is acceptable and forbidden in Jewish and Muslim law is not identical. For example ( excerpted from the same cite as the above link ):

*Islam prohibits all intoxicating alcohols, liquors, wines and drugs. kashrut regards all wines kosher. Hence food items and drinks showing the kosher symbol containing alcohol are not halal.

Gelatin is considered kosher regardless of its source of origin. If the gelatin is prepared from swine, Muslims consider it haram (prohibited). Hence foods items such as marshmallows, yogurt, etc., showing kosher symbols are not halal.

Enzymes (irrespective of their sources even from non-kosher animals) in cheese making are considered mere secretion(pirsah b’almah) according to some kashrut organizations, hence all cheeses are considered kosher. Muslims look for the source of the enzyme in cheese making. If it is coming from the swine, it is considered haram(forbidden). Hence cheeses showing kosher symbols may not be halal.*

Jomo Mojo: You’ve stumped me there :slight_smile: - I have no idea what the specific Ja’fari/Imami Shi’a take on shellfish is. I will note that a substantial minority of Azeris are Sunni though. I think the figure I’ve seen is about 30-40% ( for the Republic that is - That’s probably not at all applicable to Iranian Azerbaijan ). In those cases I believe your original hypothesis is correct and they are Hanafi.

  • Tamerlane
10

I don’t think gelatin is always considered kosher, regardless of source, although I will defer to anyone who has more authoritative information on this subject. I went to summer camp at the Jewish Community Center when I was a kid, and the JCC kept a Kosher kitchen, even for campers who dodn’t observe kashrut, on the theory that it wasn’t fair to the kids who did if their buddies were, say, eating sausage pizzas in ffront of them on field trips. They went to great pains to find kosher marshmallow fluff to make s’mores for cookouts, as apparently it’s very hard to come by kosher marshmallows, but the fluff uses kosher gelatin so it’s acceptable.

Mmmmm, s’mores! Baked in tinfoil over a campfire!

11

Tamerlane:

This is not true. Gelatin is only Kosher if it originates from a Kosher animal or (as is most often the case) is not of animal origin at all. Swine gelatin is just as non-kosher as swine meat.

This is the reason why most mass-market brands of gelatin (ever see a kosher symbol on a box of Jell-O?) and marshmallows (next time you’re in the market, note the difference on the boxes of Nestle’s hot cocoa mix without marshmallows and with) are not Kosher.

And the same is true of cheese. Very few cheeses are Kosher, none of the mass-market brands, such as Kraft. Kosher preparation of cheese a very involved and heavily supervised process, because the rennet used in cheesemaking is not purely extracted enzymes, but usually includes some of the animal itself. Obviously, with the Jewish strictures against meat and milk mixed, this needs to be avioded. And certainly so if the rennet used comes from a non-kosher animal.

12

Well, my Azerbaijani buddy has asked me to post a link to his Web site, which has some links to Azerbaijani recipes (among other things: politics, Islam, history and culture of Azerbaijan). I told him where to find this thread, so he may drop in later himself. Here’s the URL, and if he delivers on his promise of providing his mom’s plov recipe, I’ll post it later:

www.elchinibadov.homestead.com

He is proving to be somewhat of an Azeri/pan-Turkic nationalist, so this could get interesting…but I’ll let you draw your own conclusions.

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cmkeller and Eva Luna: Ah, thanks for the correction :).

  • Tamerlane