Is 'Bare Ground De-Icer' really just alcohol? Does it work? If so, how?

[Duck_Duck_Goose]

“Bare Ground De-Icer”. Saw an ad for it in the Chicago Tribune magazine, looked it up in Google.

http://www.emrkt.com/comtrad/bare_ground.html

Natural de-icer means you’ll have to shovel less this winter .
All-natural grain juices dissolve away snow, prevent snow from adhering for 10-14 days! Perfect for clearing driveways, walks and protecting plants…

It was discovered by two Hungarian distillery workers when they noticed that plant runoff water going into a local pond kept everything from freezing—even in the dead of frigid Hungarian winters. They isolated the key ingredients—all natural byproducts and patented the formula. And now you can throw away your shovel and fire your hernia doctor forever!..

Um–“grain juices”? “distillery workers”?

What is it, really? It can’t be just alcohol, that would be too simple. They want $12.95 a gallon for it, whatever it is, $39.95 if you buy the whole kit with the sprayer.

Does it work? And if so, how?

[Torgo]

I doubt that throwing alcohol on your driveway would keep melting away the snow and ice for 14 days…there must be something else to it. However…

…you know those “lock de-icers” you see in the checkout lane of your local grocery/hardware store? Those ARE just containers of plain old rubbing alcohol…and they’re selling those little tiny containers of the stuff for $2 or so! You can buy 10 times as much at the grocery for about $0.99! Just pour that stuff on your car key, stick it in the door lock and PRESTO! De-iced door lock!

[Bob_Scene]

This site:

http://collegian.ksu.edu/issues/v099b/sp/n144/a-e-road-deicer-stinson.html

Says that one kind of agricultural de-icer is calcium magnesium propionate: Ca[sup]2+[/sup] Mg[sup]2+/sup[sub]4[/sub]

The stuff you’re asking about could be any one of a huge number of water-soluble organic compounds (or a mixture of them). Being water-soluble is all it takes to melt ice, and distilleries and food processing plants could produce any number of suitable chemicals. Calcium magnesium propionate and a lot of other chemicals have an advantage over alcohol in that they won’t just evaporate when you put them on the ice. They’re probably a lot more expensive than salt, but they’re less corrosive and won’t kill plants (as bad). Some of them can be applied as liquids or solutions, which has its advantages, and some can be applied before ice forms to prevent its formation.

[handy]

Alcohol has a lower freezing point than water. I suppose it might have some effect.

[Bob_Scene]

*Originally posted by handy *
**Alcohol has a lower freezing point than water. I suppose it might have some effect. **

All that really matters is the concentration of solute, not its freezing point. Salt, for example, has a freezing point of 801 degrees Centigrade and it melts ice.

[handy]

“freezing point of 801 degrees Centigrade and it melts ice”

Hmmmmm, doesn’t feel cold to the touch. What would you say the melting point is?

[Shiva]

I think this is it: http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=2&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ft00&s1=de-icer.PPDB.&OS=SPEC/de-icer&RS=SPEC/de-icer

[Bob_Scene]

*Originally posted by handy *
**“freezing point of 801 degrees Centigrade and it melts ice”

Hmmmmm, doesn’t feel cold to the touch. What would you say the melting point is? **

The melting point is the same as the freezing point.

[Duck_Duck_Goose]

Shiva. Dude. I stand in awe.

Liquid and solid de-icing and anti-icing compositions and methods for making same

Abstract
Liquid and solid de-icing and anti-acing agents comprise neutral or alkaline, non-chloride, non-phosphate and non-glycol compositions that are biodegradable, non-toxic, and environmentally benign. Liquid compositions are based on aqueous solutions of one or more organic acid salts such as lactic acid, succinic acid, acetic acid, and formic acid salts (preferably potassium or sodium). Solid compositions comprise organic-based porous pulp and paper sludge granules impregnated with a liquid de-icing composition or its ingredient(s), and dried. The liquid compositions can be obtained either by direct mixing of commercially available chemicals, or by chemical transformation of commercially available acids, or by fermentation of glucose, sucrose, fructose, or other sugars, or combination thereof.

So, um, what is it when it’s at home? I love it when 50 cent polysyllabic Mr. White Coat Scientist words get reduced to something like “soap” or “booze”.

[Sauron]

*Originally posted by Bob Scene *

The melting point is the same as the freezing point.

Bob, I’m an ignoramus. Enlighten me regarding how this is possible.

[Chronos]

Quoth Bob Scene:

They’re probably a lot more expensive than salt, but they’re less corrosive and won’t kill plants (as bad).

Other common de-icing substances are ammonium nitrate and ammonium urate. I don’t know how effective they are, relatively speaking, as de-icers, but they actually act as fertilizers, and will probably make your grass a bit healthier.

As to freezing/melting point: Consider water/ice. If you cool liquid water down to zero C (32 F), it’ll turn to ice, so 0 is the freezing point of water. Similarly, if you take solid ice and heat it up to 0 C, it’ll melt, so 0 is also the melting point. It’s the same way for all substances.

[SSgtBaloo]

*Originally posted by Sauron *
**

*Originally posted by Bob Scene *

The melting point is the same as the freezing point.

Bob, I’m an ignoramus. Enlighten me regarding how this is possible. **

Allow me.

The freezing point of salt is 801 degrees centigrade if you start with molten salt and cool it to that temperature, at which point it “freezes” (becomes solid).

The melting point of salt is 801 degrees centigrade if you start with frozen (solid) salt and heat it up to (actually a bit more than) 801 degrees centigrade, wherupon, it melts.

Simple, no?

~~Baloo

[sup]Expects this explanation to generate yet another question despite its simplicity. Someone else field the next one, huh?[/sup]

[handy]

“Other common de-icing substances are ammonium nitrate”

Swell, & just throw some model rocket fuel on top of that, light it & itll blow a path a block long.

[Geobabe]

It sounds like the stuff they have been using at my college this winter. I was told it’s some sort of hops extract and is more enviro-friendly than salt. Makes the whole campus smell like molasses but it seems to work.

[SSgtBaloo]

*Originally posted by Geobabe *
**Makes the whole campus smell like molasses but it seems to work. **

Sounds kind of like the goop we de-iced aircraft with when I was stationed at Fairchild. That stuff smelled like maple syrup. Never tried to taste it though. After all, we kept it in a HUGE tank out at the “tank farm”. They told us it was nontoxic and biodegradeable, but also warned us not to breathe the fumes(?!?). Everything in all the other tanks made jets fly, so I wasn’t tempted to give it the taste test.

~~Baloo

[Sauron]

*Originally posted by Baloo *
**

*Originally posted by Sauron *
**

*Originally posted by Bob Scene *

The melting point is the same as the freezing point.

Bob, I’m an ignoramus. Enlighten me regarding how this is possible. **

Allow me.

The freezing point of salt is 801 degrees centigrade if you start with molten salt and cool it to that temperature, at which point it “freezes” (becomes solid).

The melting point of salt is 801 degrees centigrade if you start with frozen (solid) salt and heat it up to (actually a bit more than) 801 degrees centigrade, wherupon, it melts.

Simple, no?

~~Baloo

[sup]Expects this explanation to generate yet another question despite its simplicity. Someone else field the next one, huh?[/sup] **

Thanks, Baloo. Sadly, I grasped this concept at the exact moment I hit “Submit” for my earlier post. I tried to recall the post, and I thought I had – it didn’t show up on the screen when I checked the thread immediately thereafter. Unfortunately, my momentary lapse in judgement and mental ability is now visible for all to see.

I’ll just go crawl in my hole now.