You’re misusing the word agenda. Your agenda is wanting to gab on the phone while in your car. Why this is so important you’ve never explained, but that’s what’s driving your side of the issue (so to speak). My agenda is not getting hit. Why that’s important to me should be self-evident.
BTW, since you’ve come back, how about answering that earlier question? What an unacceptable number of traffic fatalities due to cell phone use? Eventually the study will get done. What’s the number (if any) that would persuade you they should be banned?
Haven’t had an opportunity to do as much research as I’d like, but have other responsibilities. Anyhoo, for the benefit of those interested in facts, the NHTSA website has a bunch of stuff, especially this page with links to various reports and statistical analyses. This report (pdf warning), for example, confirms my assertion that it was seatbelt laws and DUI enforcement which were the primary reducers of traffic fatalities.
You never answered mine. How many people have to die before we outlaw tuning radios? Eating cheeseburgers? Correcting childen? Conversing with passengers? Putting on make-up? Reading maps? Looking at GPS units? If you think (or refuse to admit) people don’t die as a result of these distractions every day, then you are delusional.
I have said before that if I am observed driving erratically as a result of ANY distraction, I’m sure an officer will be glad to cite me for it. There is no need for presumed guilt just because I happen to be using a cell phone.
As for injuring or killing people as a result of negligence behind the wheel, we already have laws in place to deal with that problem. I would be legally and fiscally responsible if I was negligent and caused a personal injury or death. I just don’t believe that cell phone use is automatic negligence, any more than I believe talking, radio tuning, etc… are automatically negligent behavior.
I am unconvinced that cell phone use is the hazard you make it out to be. I don’t see bodies piling up at the morgue or a corresponding increase in accidents as a result of the explosive growth of cell phone use.
You accused Dr Dave (and me) of dismissing arguments because they didn’t fit with our view of the situation. I wonder if you have noticed that behavior in anyone else who has posted here. (Hint - his initials are PBear42)
Have you ever stopped to consider that your observations are nothing more than the combination of coincidence and wishful thinking? Maybe You remember an incident more readily when you see a person on the phone, because it obviously ticks you off. Or maybe, as a result of your cell phone bias, when you observe people on the phone you judge more harshly, and become hyper-critical of their driving habits. Just a thought.
What does that mean? That you are catering to an audience that knows you an therefore is more likely to agree with you?
I have nothing against your opinions really pbear, even if I don’t agree with them completely, but I think your methods of arguement are lacking and a bit stubborn.
Early on, I declined to argue with CPU because it was clear his/her mind was made up. Everything he/she has posted since confirms that assessment. Thus, I’ve been writing for the benefit of others who come to this page after having read the column. And, no, I don’t post enough to have a reputation. Which is unfortunate. People who know me and talk on their cell phones take me very seriously when I tell them about my observations. They know I’m not what CPU (and now you) finds it convenient to imply.
With no intention to derail this, but I am not sure what you think I am implying about you? Anything I “think” about you was specifically stated. I think you might be stubborn and I think you might be catering to an audience.
You cleared up the first one. Over all it is almost impossible to change someones feelings and opinions on the web (and not much easier in real life).
To answer your earlier question though, I don’t believe it is a matter of deaths to convince me that cell phone use is hazardous. All distractions are hazardous. What would convince me is that there is a significant increase in accidents that can’t be linked to other things, like increased amount of traffic and the many problems that come with that (increased road wear, congested highways, increased construction zones), or the lack of change in driving instruction and testing in recent years.
Cell phone use like every other distraction has a much larger effect on already bad drivers and distractable drivers. A MUCH smaller effect on good drivers. I know many may say a person who uses a cell phone while driving isn’t a good driver, but that assumption can’t be made in this discussion, because it IS the point of discussion.
I didn’t imply that you were anything. I know that your mind is as made up as mine. I know that no data or rational argument of any kind will dissuade you from your position. You will twist and ignore those things which don’t fit your view of the situation.
I have no problem with that. That’s exactly where I am, at the moment. I’m just self-aware and non-judgemental enough to realize it.
It is possible that you’re both right. Seatbelt use might increase the number of accidents while reducing the severity of each accident, and thus reduce the death and injury rate. I have not seen a cite about seatbelt use causing increased speeding, but I did see one once about airbags making people feel safer, and thus driving more hazardously.
As for DD, just to be fair, the number of accidents attributable to cellphones and radios tells us little. We need the denominator. This is the number of times a radio is played with per trip times the number of people with radios, and the number of calls per trip times the number of people who use cellphones. I suspect the first number is much larger than the second, especially five years ago, but you can’t tell if the numbers are comparable without this information.
In reality, there is a fair amount of credence to your last thesis here. According to most of the researchers on the topic, less than 15% accidents that occur during cellphone use occur while actually manipulating the phone itself. This indicates that the majority of the accidents occur during the period where there may be some cognitive impairment due to performing multiple tasks simultaneously (of course, it may simply be a recognition of the fact that the actual manipulation of the phone takes considerably less time than that spent during the actual conversation).
The media and legislative focus on hands free kits may well have the effect of actually increasing the number of phone calls conducted while driving or extending the conversations or reducing the increased care that should be taken while performing multiple tasks simultaneously by suggesting to the masses that the use of the hands free kit effectively eliminates any effects on driving the multitasking adds.
Actually, the issue isn’t the number of fatalities that is the issue, but rather the level of benefit derived from allowing their use. Further, the mere fact that an accident occurred while someone was on a phone says nothing regarding potential causality associated with it. I mean statistically speaking SOME accidents would occur while drivers were on cellphones regardless of whether they had any impact on driving or not, simply due to the number of people that use them in cars and the number of cars on the road. There are innumerable lightnings strikes on homes while their inhabitants are watching television too, but there isn’t any causal correlation between the two.
Further, use of any device entails inherent risks. If you check the National Safety Council’s website, you will find that something on the order of 300 Americans drown in their own bathtubs every year. This problem could be eliminated by getting rid of all the bathtubs and forcing everyone to take showers instead, but I am yet to see any type of “Ban the Bathtub” movement sweeping the country.
Given the same argument regarding the number of fatalities being the only important issue, were I you, I would be arguing to ban headlights on automobiles. Afterall, if you didn’t have those pesky headlights, no one would drive after dark, eliminating almost half of all accidents. The rate of nightime accidents is far greater than those occurring during daylight hours per 100 million miles driven.
Actually, your close with regard to the issue of frequency of use. Fact of the matter is that the use of the radio controls is relatively infrequent and short-lived (a few seconds of interaction every hour or so—I can dig up the study that I did with regard to that while I with GM if anyone is interested in the exact numbers). Cell phone calls require considerably more time in perspective with the time spent on the road. This would indicate that the radio is significantly more distracting than the cell phone is (fewer accidents with regard to time spent interacting with it). Cell phone subscriptions as of 2001 were over 100 million in the US at that time, with the cell phone industry estimating that approximately 40% of all calls occurring while on the road (you can tell by looking at the towers that are utilized during the course of the call and whether multiple towers are involved over the course of the call).
Good point. Fact of the matter is that the things are distracting to some degree. Then again, so is looking at the street names when you are looking for your turn. The issue isn’t whether or not they are distracting as much as it is how distracting are they in comparison with other acceptable activities behind the wheel. One of the studies that Cecil originally cited in his column refered to a study done at the University of Utah showing that a driver on a cellphone was had their reaction time slowed down to that of a 65 year old driver. Okay, but so what? We don’t ban 65 year old drivers from the roadways—their performance is considered acceptable.
It is absurd to try to classify someone as being an “impaired driver” if their performance is demonstrably better than what we consider acceptable for other drivers on the road, whether the cause of their “impairment” is a cell phone, a GPS unit, kids in the car, or 3 beers. I’m sure that Dale Jarret or any other NASCAR driver demonstrates much better ability at avoiding accidents or road obstacles than any of us on this board (all things being equal). I’m equally sure that I am not somehow an “impaired driver” because I cannot match his level of expertise.
As I noted before, if one wants to declare cell phones too hazardous to use in cars, then by definition, we have to define a minimally acceptable level of performance for all drivers, then ban anything that results in performance that falls below that level (including driver ages over about 40, passengers, kids, dogs, conversation, road sides, and any other distraction that might be located outside the car). All of these things rank higher in increasing the likelihood of an accident than cell phones according to the studies that have been performed to date.
As was noted earlier, cell phones make a visible target and excuse for poor driving. The media is rife with stories like someone being on a cellphone and running a stop sign and getting into an accident. What they fail to note is that the same types of accidents occurred BEFORE cell phones where invented (remember the movies in Drivers Ed?).
For this to be particularly meaningful, wouldn’t we also have to know what precentage of drivers were listening to their radios, which would set up the condition of them possibly “monkeying with them?” (there are people who claim to never change stations, but I’m sure that those who are being honest about them are the minority) I’m sure it’s better than 75% of drivers, which would make for far fewer accidents as a group than radio listeners, given a group comprised of only 3% of drivers had only 25,000 fewer accidents total.
I’ve pretty much said what I have to say. I leave it to others to decide who is starting with a conclusion and massaging the data to fit that conclusion and who is starting with the data and reaching a conclusion. I post further to note one thing. My observations have a context and that should be acknowledged.
I’ve been talking about city driving. What happens on Interstates and other major highways is different, as is rural driving (small highways and side roads) and commuter freeways. In cities - and I’ve done a lot of pedaling in Philadelphia, New York, Chicago, Boston and, of course, San Francisco - the other distractions don’t come up so much. One doesn’t see much eating while driving, make-up being applied, radio fiddling, etc. Those are mostly commuter freeway phenomena. So, when I say I’ve observed cell phone use as the largest distraction (though by no means the only one), it’s in that context.
As a 26 year driving veteran with a clean record who has over the years driven while eating, smoking, being felt up, listening to the radio, playing I Spy and myriad other search games, reading a map, digging candy out of my purse, changing my shoes, conversing with passengers, yelling at children, and, yes, talking on the phone, I’m self-aware enough to know which of these activities distracts from my safe driving. At the risk of sounding ignorant, this isn’t one of those situations where I need empirical evidence to modify my behavior. After all, the record shows that I’m a perfect driver despite the dubious choices I’ve made in the past.
I place phone use right up there with being felt up and reading.
But apparently there are people who argue that they drive just fine under any conditions.
Farmwoman, I’m not sure if you are referring to me, but I never claimed (nor do I claim) to “drive just fine under any conditions”. In fact, I realize and have said many times that using a cell phone is distracting. My posts are a reaction to the fact that some people seem believe that cell phone use automatically makes you drive recklessly, and therefore warrants a traffic ticket. Some seem to believe it is worse than driving drunk. I’m sorry. That’s a crock.
I drive the I-95 corridor through Baltimore, MD daily. it’s about a 60 mile round trip
commute, and sometimes if traffic is getting hairy, or driving conditions are less than stellar (Can you say 15" of snow?) I don’t use the phone or hang up in order to give more attention to driving. I also turn off the radio, put down the cheeseburger, coke and fries, and ignore passengers in similar situations.
While I disagree with cellphoneuser’s adament insistence that cell phone use while driving is okay, I completely understand his frustration. Who isn’t cheesed off at the sheer arrogance, ignorance, and hypocricy of a “Hang Up & Drive” bumper sticker on a car where the driver is going too fast in a rainstorm with no headlights, a marginally-functional windshield wiper, one hand around the woman sitting next to him (who has appropriated the rearview mirror to fix her makeup), and the other hand holding his cigarette to his mouth while he drives with his knees?
The problem, cellphoneuser, is your argument that “A is legal, and it’s as dangerous as B, so B should be legal” just doesn’t apply to the American legal system. Our laws are built by public opinion, outrage, and lobbying, not by logic. Why else would marijuana brownies be illegal when bourbon and cigars are legal? Why else is it okay to drive with a 0.78% blood alcohol level while eating a cheeseburger, but not to drive stone-cold sober with a half-bottle of wine on the passenger seat? Why else would we tell a married 19-year-old he’s old enough to grab a grenade launcher and get killed fighting in Iraq, but he’s too young to drink a beer?
You have to look at cell phone use by itself, not in comparison to eating cheeseburgers and getting felt up. Laws like that get passed based on whether there is a demonstrable danger to public safety (there is) and whether the law is enforceable (it is).
It’s unfortunate that most people aren’t responsible enough to make decisions for themselves. Many of us will use our cellphones for a 30-second call on a straight road in clear weather with no traffic, but not in bad weather or heavy traffic. The folks who’ll jabber on a cellphone while dodging bicyclists on crowded Denver streets will ruin it for all of us. Uncontrolled cellphone use is dangerous. I just don’t see how anyone can argue that point.
This, of course, provides no information linking driving with cell phone use, as phones used by passengers, bicyclists, train riders, and school busses (where you often have a huge number of kids on the phone at once) would all trigger the same way.
:dubious: Using your cell phone while driving is definitely not safer than not using it while driving. In many states it’s against the law. But what about smoking a cigarette while driving? That’s not against the law but using your cell is???
Holding a smoldering ember in your hand while driving seems much more dangerous than holding a cell phone. I know your attention is distracted while dialing a number or answering the phone but fumbling a lighter and a pack of smokes to get one lighted is distracting, too. At least with a cell phone there is no hot ash to tap out after every few words. Ash that is hot and blows around in the car if the window is open seems dangerous to me. What about that inconsiderate smoker who tosses their burning butt out the window? On two occasions someone’s discarded butt made it in to my car and burned my seat and rear deck.
Cigarette smoking while driving causes accidents. It also causes more litter on our roads. I have to frequently breath that smoke that blows my way while at a stop light. Cigarette smoking is a much bigger issue than cell phone use and it should be against the law to smoke while driving. Why isn’t it?