See InvisibleWombat’s post directly above yours, where he debunks the “A is legal, and it’s as dangerous as B, so B should be legal” argument.
I’m arguing against making it illegal. The whole cell phone thing is a knee-jerk reaction to a trumped-up, perceived problem. I wasn’t arguing that since eating while driving is legal, then cell phone use should be as well. I am arguing that we already have laws regulating reckless driving. We have no need to single out one distraction over another.
By that logic, we have no need for specific laws against driving while intoxicated, either. Why should that “distraction” be singled out over another? If a person is driving drunk, but not driving recklessly, he’s not violating those “laws regulating reckless driving” that you refer to, so therefore he’s not a problem?
So you’re once again comparing cell phone use to driving drunk? Hey, maybe I’m wrong and cell phone use IS worse than driving drunk. I have no point of comparison since I’ve never driven drunk. Are you speaking from experience? Maybe you can enlighten me!
Yes, drunk driving is a seperate issue, but a driver still has to do something wrong in order to be charged. You know, drive recklessly, weave all over the road, or have an accident.
Besides, excessive alcohol use causes severe mental and PHYSICAL impairment that lasts for hours. The worst that can be said of cell phone use is that it diverts some of your attention away from driving. And as I said before, once you hang up you can divert all of my attention back to the road. The drunk is still drunk.
Please read my post again. I’m not comparing cell phone use to drunk driving. I did not say anything about which was worse. I was only addressing your logic that said (correct me, please, if I mis-paraphrase) that we don’t need specific laws against using a cell phone while driving, because the existing laws against reckless driving are sufficient to deal with people who use a cell phone while driving, and do so recklessly. Between the lines, I was asking if your preference would be to apply that same logic to drink driving. That is, if you could have things your way, would you do away with laws that specifically address driving while intoxicated, because the existing reckless driving laws can sufficiently deal with such drivers?
Actually, I believe that is not true. If a driver is pulled over by a police officer for, say, having a tail light out, and the officer detects that the driver is intoxicated (and then establishes that sufficiently with the proper tests), the driver can be arrested for DUI, even though his actual driving may have been perfect.
Well no, I wouldn’t do away with drunk driving laws and unless you plan to compare drunk driving to cell phone use it doesn’t make sense to ask about it. It’s apples and oranges.
You are correct about the tail light. What I really meant was an officer needs cause to pull a motorist over, and in my opinion, cell phone use alone is not sufficient cause.
I’m glad you weren’t comparing the two activities, and I assume this means you won’t.
I would venture to guess that drunk drivers are actually more predictable than motorists yakking on cell phones. There are also many fewer drunk drivers on the road at most times of the day than there are mindless drivers on phones. As a motorcyclist, I especially notice the delayed reaction times, the drifting out of lanes and the regular running of stop signs by these morons. I know they’re on the phone before I can actually see it. It’s common to see women in mini-vans, driving in school areas with kids in the car while they absent minded talk on the phone to someone who isn’t there, risking everyone’s lives. I think it’s appalling. What should there be laws against, if not this?
After reading Jillgats post this morning, I decided to actively search for cell phone use on my morning commute. This is what I discovered:
-
Trying to determine whether a person is on a cell phone is HARD and just about the most distracting thing I have ever done while driving. You may want to reconsider trying to catch people using cell phones. It’s very dangerous. I’m beginning to think there should be a law against it.
-
I’m not sure how anyone can observe all that much cell phone use while driving. On highways you tend to travel with the pack and the cars around you tend to remain around you as you drive. Even on less travelled roads, where traffic may merge on and off more often, you still don’t get to observe all that many cars. You can’t see much more than what’s in front of you or what’s behind you, unless you are actively looking into cars that are travelling in the other direction, which we already know is dangerous and ill-advised.
-
I saw one coffee drinker, one breakfast eater, and zero cell phone users, but due to the limited amount of attention that I was actually able to devote to this task, I probably missed a couple.
Jillgat, you mentioned that you drive a motorcycle, so maybe you weave in and out of traffic and therefore see more drivers as you pass them, but since you are advocating drunk driving type penalties for cell phone use, I don’t imagine you drive like that.
But only a few posts ago you were assuring us that most drivers are like you, using their cell phones 20 times a week, that it doesn’t matter how many accidents it creates because it is an almost universal stupid driving behaviour. What happened, where were all the irresponsible drivers when you were driving?
I NEVER said that people are using their phones 20 times a week. I ESTIMATED that I used the phone TEN to 20 times a week, which averages to 15, by the way. No bias in your post.
Since there are over 100 million cell phones in use, it’s safe to assume there are more calls made while driving now than 5 years ago. I said, I’m sure I missed a couple. In addition, it was before 8:00am so cell phone use would be less frequent at at that hour.
I also partly based my conclusions that cell phone use was very widespread because of comments like, “It’s common to see women in mini-vans, driving in school areas with kids in the car while they absent minded talk on the phone to someone who isn’t there, risking everyone’s lives.” This was from one of the most recent posts, but it is representative of many of the comments made in this thread. It also reveals a strong bias against cell phone users with no data to back up the assertions that are made. Jillgat automaticallyassumes the phone user is “absent-minded” and “risking peoples lives” with no supporting evidence. No bias there either.
But if you think my anecdotal observations are enough to base conclusions on, then we apparently don’t need any laws regulating cell phone use because people don’t use them while driving.
I DO stand by my assertion that trying to determine who is using a cell phone is hard, and dangerous. I can imagine these outraged posters jockeying through traffic trying to get a glimpse of the driver that somehow did something that they deemed reckless to determine whether they are on a cell phone.
By the way, many motorcycle drivers are reckless and dangerous. I have seen people on motorcycles weaving through cars like lunatics and riding wheelies on I-95 in heavy traffic. Perhaps we should ban them. But it wouldn’t be fair to assume that ALL motorcycle drivers are reckless based on the actions of a few, would it?
To all Dopers, please note that CPU has only just begun to collect data to support his conclusions. Which came first is now clear.
By the way, dude, data collection in cities is much easier, especially since it’s the oncoming and cross traffic which present the largest hazards (cars overtaking me sometimes do stupid things, but usually they at least see me). And, for me, driving in cities, knowing what the other drivers are up to ain’t optional. I’ve been collecting data for a long time (I’m almost as old as you). And, as stated, my only agenda is not being hit.
It is not hard at all to determine. In fact it’s easy. They are the ones that merge without looking and almost run you off the road. They are the ones that run lights and stop signs. You can spot them going slower than the speed limit in the left lane on the highway. I notice when they pull out in front of me, forcing me to slow down in a panic to avoid interrupting their call by slamming in to them. When this stuff happens around me I take notice of them on their cell phone because of their driving. I have this strange urge to see the person’s face who just did that stupid move on the road that almost killed me so I look at their face and see a cell phone stuck to it.
ANYTHING that distracts or impairs a driver from actually driving (that’s why your in a car’s driver’s seat) should be treated the same. I think the drivers that smoke forced the no cell phone law in to legislation. Now it’s time for us cell phone users to fight back! Let’s ban it all. Better yet, everyone take the bus or the train… down with the car drivers!
I know none of us on The Straight Dope do any of these things while we drive.
I’m sorry, I lied. I talk on my cell phone. But I don’t commit any moving violations while doing so… I promise.
Welcome back, PBear!
Actually, there is plenty of data out there that supports either position. You can choose to believe or ignore whatever supports your position. You accuse me of doing it while you are doing it yourself PBear. If the study doesn’t fit your view, it’s flawed. If the study that supports your view is questioned, then it’s just an attempt to deny the truth.
Yes, I just started paying MORE attention to the habits of the drivers around me. Based on all of this rhetoric, I assumed it would be EASY to pick out cell phone drivers due to the fact that they would be causing accidents, driving erratically, and generally causing panic and mayhem in the streets. Turns out it’s not easy. It’s hard, and if you’re busy rubber-necking to see whether other drivers are talking on cell phones then you are more distracted than I am while I’m driving.
Then again, maybe not. Maybe you are better than me when it comes to peering through tinted glass or spying into the interiors of cars that are passing you at 50-120 MPH. (assuming the cars are going in opposite directions and moving at 25-60 miles per hour) But if that’s true, then you must be a better driver than me. And we all know that EVERYONE thinks they are an above average driver.
Anyway I parked my car near an intersection for lunch today. I ate in the car, but I wasn’t driving. I hope that doesn’t offend anyone. The intersection was a 4-way stop. I did see much more cell phone use. I counted about 150 cars in 35 minutes. About 1 drivers in 10 (actually 17) were using their cell phone. In order to observe this, I chose a spot where every car had to stop, and of course, I couldn’t detect people who were using hands-free devices. So far, I haven’t seen any erratic or reckless behavior from the cell phone users, or anyone for that matter. No accidents, no missed cues or delayed starts, but I’ll keep trying. Will you? Or is your mind closed to the possibility that you’re wrong?
Just to clarify. I’m on a bicycle and riding in cities. So, I see very little 50 to 120 mph driving. Also, it’s easier for me to see what other people are doing because I’ve only got their glass to see through. Yeah, it’s a lot of work, but as I said in my first post, knowing when people don’t see me is the key to staying alive in pedals. In fact, what I’m mostly looking for is where their eyes are pointed. Spotting or not spotting a cell phone is incidental. Moreover, I never claimed such use was rampant (though it is increasing). What I said is that it’s almost always a significant distraction when it occurs (remember, I’m talking about city driving, not freeway commuting), and that it precipitates a need for defensive maneuvers on my part more than any other single factor.
[QUOTE=Werd]
It is not hard at all to determine. In fact it’s easy. They are the ones that merge without looking and almost run you off the road. They are the ones that run lights and stop signs. You can spot them going slower than the speed limit in the left lane on the highway. I notice when they pull out in front of me, forcing me to slow down in a panic to avoid interrupting their call by slamming in to them. QUOTE]
Amazing how NONE of these behaviors existed prior to the advent of the cell phone, isn’t it?
By the way, fellow Dopers, I don’t mean to suggest cell phone use on commuter freeways is harmless. If some chucklehead cuts off the driver three cars ahead of you, the extra half second it’ll probably take for you to react could easily be the difference between avoiding the pile-up or not. I’m just saying I’m not in a position to comment on how common cell phone use is in that context, how often it’s a problem, nor its significance relative to other hazards.
I have been a little troll-ish with some of my comments in the last few posts, and I apologize to everyone for that. Emotions are beginning to run high in this thread.
Yes, I do remember you said you were a cycler, and my comments about observing other drivers talking on the phone weren’t specifically aimed at you, but after trying to do it this morning, I just wanted to re-iterate that it IS hard.
I rode my bike literally everywhere for years and I know what you mean about eye contact. Once you make eye contact you at least know the driver is aware of you. It helps, a LOT.
I am going to ask you to try to observe driver behavior without a cell phone, PBear. I know you think it’s worse when people are using them, but it is possible that the cell phone users just stick in your mind more. It’s human nature to find causal links where there may not be any.
I am asking you this because I recall that many drivers NEVER made eye contact with me when I rode my bike, and in the '70’s I didn’t have cell phones to hang it on. So I am wondering whether it’s really the phone or just the norm?
My analysis (and I think Jillgat’s is from observing cars driving erratically, not trying to see how many people are using cellphones. That’s something I do anyway to be alert for trouble. I can believe that those on motorcycles need to be twice as careful as I am.
On the freeways where I drive the lanes move at very different speeds. Thus, when I see a car driving erratically in the lane next to mine, I will likely pass it. It is but a second to see if that person is on the phone. Motorcyclists in California can lane split, and therefore can pass lots of cars. The percentage of motorcyclists weaving in and out of lanes is very, very low - they seem to be safer drivers on average than car drivers, in my experience. Since they always lose in a collision, no surprise there.
I can’t speak to the percentage of cell phone users who drive erratically, only the percentage of erratic drivers who are cell phone users - which is very high. Much higher than the percentage of cellphone users as a whole, according to my experience.
A rambling post for a rambiling thread:
I have done exactly this. I live on a large hill. In the middle of this hill there is an elementary school, right next to a park for kids. A coasting car can easily hit 50 on this hill. It is a suburban street, and the speed limit is 35 mph, unless the school light is flashing. I must run down this hill when I run from home, and run up it to return.
I started running a year or two before cell phones took off. At that time, I typically ran to the top of this hill as part of my run. I noticed that almost all the speeders were guys playing Mario Andretti at the top of the hill, where the road is curvy. They all tended to slow down considerably near the school, to a respectable 40 mph or so.
A few years later, cell phones exploded into suburbia. Just as suddenly, I noticed that large numbers of women driving minivans were speeding by the elementary school. All of the significant, non-teenager, speeders, except one who was a teacher late for school who gave me a very worried look, were on their cell phones. (A lot of kids drive to HS by this same route. Some of them drive quite fast, also.) This was before hands free technology, so it was easier to tell, an dI also needed to attempt eye contact before crossing the stree. The only conclusion I could draw was that they hadn’t noticed where they were in time to slow down. In the subsequent years, both genders have taken to indulging in this behavior, but the fact remains. There are now speeders in front of the elementary school when there used to be almost none, and the vast majority of them are talking on their cell phones.
As far as how dangerous are other activities, it is hard to say. I know one man whose back was broken and whose wife was killed when a woman switched radio stations while driving and drifted onto the shoulder, where they were unfortunately riding their bikes. In my girls’ driving class there was a young man who had to take a remedial driving class after totaling his car. He had attempted to change CDs while driving at well over 100 mph. I am in my 40s and have been the innocent driver in two accidents. In both cases, I was rear ended by people not paying attention. (I had been stopped for some at intersections both times.) One was drunk and speeding last fall, the other just speeding - before the days of cell phones. I only know of accidents involving cell phones. (A bicyclist in Denver was killed last year by a teenager simulataneously wielding a cell phone and a car. The teenager never saw the guy, even though everyone else on the road did, and that is not the only incident I know of, so it does happen.)
Should cell phone use while driving be illegal? I don’t know, but I think so. Clearly, phones and stereos are distracting and can be dangerous. Clearly both can be used responsibly, but often are not. The fact is, manipulating the stereo happens infrequently enough that it is very possible do so responsibly. You can see bicyclist, and decide, I’ll wait until I’m by them, even if that annoying commercial is on. Talking on a phone is a continuous distraction, by someone who doesn’t know to prompt you if you are entering an intersection talking (unlike a passenger).
However some of the arguments used here are specious. For example, I recall a study which showed that a young man could drink a few shots and still drive better than a 75 year old. One is illegal, and one isn’t. It still makes it safer for all of us, if driving intoxicated is illegal, even if some think it absurd to ban an activity that just reduces a group of drivers to another legal group’s level. 75 year olds tend to drive within their limits, drunks don’t. I don’t smoke, but I doubt it is distracting for more than it takes to light up. Like chewing, it is more of a subconscious activity.
Of course, getting felt up is most likelly more distracting than talking on the phone. Just to be sure, though, I for one volunteer to take part in a controlled study.