Although it is not specifically illegal in my city to talk on a cell phone while driving, any behavior that is obviously causing dangerous distractions to the driver - such as applying makeup or eating - can get a person a ticket. I’ll see if I can find the specific MVD code. Besides my anecdotal evidence, enough studies have shown that talking on the phone while behind the wheel is particularly dangerous. I wondered outloud recently why this impairs drivers so much more than talking to someone in the passenger seat and he said, “because they are talking to someone who isn’t there.” I agree. Talking on a cell phone puts most people in a different dimension. Just watch them blocking walkways in airports, yelling on their phones in bookstores, restaurants and the gym and otherwise ignoring the effect they have on those around them. I have a cellphone and I do not feel the need to be so constantly available to chat that I need to interrupt people around me. I don’t answer it if it rings while I’m driving a car and can’t pull over. I don’t use a cellphone while I’m riding my motorcycle because I need all my faculties to avoid the others who mindlessly threaten to kill me.
But I ain’t gonna argue about this with somebody who goes by the screen name “cellphoneuser.”
You are arguing with me. I picked that name because I specifically signed up to discuss the column about cell phone use.
Let’s revisit the motorcycle ban. They are small and hard to see. As a result, automobile drivers often don’t see them in time and tend to over-react in order to avoid collisions. This causes a hazard for everyone around the motorcycle rider. They are unstable and difficult to handle. They offer no protection for the rider, so riders are often seriously injured. This puts undue burden on health care services and results in higher insurance premiums.
Although I have seen many instances of incredibly reckless and driving and stupid stunts by motorcycle riders, but I’m able to keep those instances in the proper perspective and realize that not ALL motorcycle drivers are reckless idiots, So I’m not out leading a charge to ban motorcycles from the road.
My wife, however is absolutely sure that motorcycles and their drivers are a serious road hazard. Every time she sees one who is speeding, riding wheelies, or weaving back and forth across their lane, she makes sure to point it out to me as proof that motorcycles should be banned.
The good news is my guest subscription will run out soon. You can outlast me.
Cell phone use is an easy target, and it REALLY does seem to tick people off. Jillgat threw out examples of people blocking walkways and yelling in bookstores. This has no bearing on the discussion about driving while using cell phones because these activities do not determine how these same people will act while behind the wheel.
My God, I pointed out an example of NASCAR drivers actually using the equivilent of hands-free cell phones while DRIVING and was told it had no bearing on this discussion about using cell phones while DRIVING. But all of you cell phone haters sat there and nodded your heads when Jillgat gave those examples that really don’t have any bearing on the discussion at all.
But let’s use them anyway. The next time you see an obnoxious cell phone user in a public place , start actively looking for other people using cell phones. See how many you observe using the phone responsibly and quietly. If you’re being honest with yourself, the number may surprise you.
Just so you all know, I AM actually looking at the data I have been able to find online about cell phone use and driving. It’s quite a fascinating subject. There is plenty of information on both sides of the issue. Y’all might actually want to read some of it.
I’ve seen enough data that I might stop using my phone while driving, but I’ll never change my mind about needing legislation to ban it.
On this Board, that’s called “the white van is always at the corner” syndrome. It’s a fair question. The answer is, no, I’m not skewing my observations. As a matter of fact, this isn’t my biggest hot button. (That would be non-use of turn signals.) Nor have I said that only cell phone users fail to see me. On the contrary, I said it also happens with non-users, just not nearly so often. The reason I think cell phones are such a hazard (at least in cities) is that this happens almost every day. This evening’s special was a woman in a minivan, on her phone, turning left directly in front of me. Never saw me. (And, yes, I use lights; wear a helmet too.) Happily, I had just crested a hill and, so, wasn’t going very fast. BTW, I’ve never been hit (not merely never had an accident where I was at fault), although I have been “doored” twice. I’m pretty good at this. One reason people who know me take my observations so seriously.
This absolutely has bearing on the discussion about driving while using cell phones. My theory is that when you are talking to someone who is not there, you are not in the reality and are not focusing on the task at hand. These people would not be shouting in restaurants if they were aware of their surroundings and the obvious etiquette.
[[They are unstable and difficult to handle.]]
You obviously don’t ride a bike.
Many times every day, I see cell phone using drivers threaten the safety of other drivers and pedestrians. About half of them are in large SUVs that can squash anybody smaller and I think they have limited visibility, too.
I am completely focused on my own safety and the safety of others when I am riding a motorcycle because yeah, I’m vulnerable. There are some real moron bikers who are attracted to the risk element of motorcycles and so are more likely to take stupid risks, sure. But they are much more a threat to themselves than they are to you.
[[The good news is my guest subscription will run out soon. You can outlast me.]]
One of JillCat’s comments reminds me of a point that was made early on, but bears repetition. The reason cell phones are qualitatively more distracting than a lot of other things is that they are more-or-less continuously accessing the thinking part of the brain and we can juggle only so many mental balls at the same time. Heck I can’t even talk on a regular phone and cook at the same time. That is, I can, but I make many more mistakes. I’ve learned to turn off the burners when someone calls. Is this always a problem for all drivers? Of course not. But, to paraphrase Lincoln, it’s always a problem for some drivers and sometimes a problem for all drivers. In cities, it’s particularly acute because there’s just so much stuff going on.
Yes, I do. (Or did) My wife felt the risk is too great, so I gave it up when we were dating. (She really DOES think they should be banned.) Try keeping upright in stop & go traffic. Of course you can do it. It’s second nature now. But it took time and practice to get there and be comfortable with it. And as far as difficult to handle, well I’m sure you’ll agree that it takes a little more muscle and coordination than driving a car to get things properly set before taking off.
I see you’re part of the SUV hater crowd, too. I’ve never owned one (too impractical for my taste) but I have driven them. I think they have better than average visibility due to the higher vantage point. They ARE ridiculously hard to see AROUND when you’re behind them, though.
It’s true that they are more likely to be seriously injured or killed in a tangle with an automobile, but (and I hate to keep using the wheelie thing, but it scared and astonished the crap out of me) if those riders had lost control, they would have tumbled down the highway in heavy traffic, causing everyone around them to try to avoid running them over. The result would likely not have been pretty.
[[The good news is my guest subscription will run out soon. You can outlast me.]]
The counterpoint was made that NASCAR drivers are spoken to when it is safe to do so, and you have ignored that. You might as well say that the radio headsets QBs use distract them, even if they are only used to call in plays. The other key difference between the NASCAR radios and cell phones is that the “conversation” is about how to drive - not about who should pick up who, or what to have for dinner. The person on the other end is watching the driving conditions intently. They actually warn the driver about road hazards and make it safer. There is no correlation between NASCAR radios and cell phone use.
Motorcycles are also a poor analogy. Motorcyclists are a hazard to themselves, generally not others. I don’t ride a motorcycle, so I’m no big fan, but I’ve never heard of a motorcycle causing others to have accidents. Killing pedestrians by driving too fast, yes, but causing other cars to collide in an effort to avoid one? No.
Big SUVs driven poorly can be a hazard to others. I do drive a large SUV. (Hey, I’ve got 5 kids, and all the kids are in one carpool or another. Living in CO, it is pretty much the only option.) Given the damage to the drunk’s Blazer when he rear ended me, and the very minor damage to my Expedition, I’d hate to see what would happen if I T-boned an old Civic. However, at least those in my vehicle are safer. My wife didn’t even know we had been hit. The kids found the whole hit and run, cop chase, guy stopped at gun point right where I had parked thing pretty exciting. No injuries to anyone. Since some fraction of accidents are single vehicle accidents, and rollovers are relatively rare, it can be argued that large SUVs reduce the risk to the population at large.
No such arguments can be made with cell phones and driving. You can’t argue that they are a hazard only to the driver, nor that they make the driver safer. The only real argument you can make is if the convenience is worth the risk. And yes, we make decisions like that daily, or we’d never get out of bed. However, since it is your convenience, and the risk is both of ours, the burden of proof is on you, cellphoneuser.
I suppose it could happen, if a car changing lanes in front of a bike noticed it and swerved back. I’d be scared crapless to ride the roads I commute on. However, in ten years of commuting, I can count the reckless bikers on the fingers of one hand.
In the traffic column of the San Jose Mercury News today (or yesterday) it was said that most accidents are single car accidents, and over all SUVs are more dangerous than smaller cars. Yes, they are safer in collisions. So, be careful.
No, I haven’t ignored it. It’s not true. It is a useful analogy. If a NASCAR driver can find “safe” times to talk while driving in about the most extreme way I can imagine, then I would venture to say that average drivers in average conditions can do so as well.
When the “pocket rockets” were first becoming popular I remember a Dateline piece extolling the hazards that these “extreme” cycles presented to other drivers. They had MULTIPLE instances where the motorcycle was going so fast when it hit a CAR it not only killed the rider, but the vehicle occupants as well. People die as a result of irresponsible motorcycle drivers. Believe it. Heck, look it up.
If you can sit there and type that with a straight face, I want some of what your smoking. Cars collide while trying to avoid SOMETHING continuously. I guarantee that motorcycles are responsible for some of the carnage, and since they are smaller and harder to see they present more risk than cars in this regard.
Wrong. It can only be said that it makes the SUV driver and its occupants safer. What you have to ask yourself is "does your convenience make it worth the risk to drivers in average sized vehicles. Apparently for you it does.
You can’t argue that about motorcycles or SUVs either, but you did anyway. In fact, SUVs are a hazard to anyone not driving one if they are unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end. I don’t particularly like SUVs, and I think they ARE a hazard to drivers in average vehicles, but I certainly would’t want anyone to ban them from the roadways.
I think Dr. Dave made an excellent point about using a cell phone to relieve anxiety about things that are preying on your mind while driving. In addition, I have been warned via cell phone by co-workers about accidents on I-95 which allowed me to be prepared for sudden stops or to avoid the congestion completely. I have used my cell phone to report accidents to the police. Some people use their cell phones to report accidents to radio stations for traffic reports. There are signs posted along I-95 ASKING people to report disabled vehicles via a toll-free cell phone number. I believe it’s #77. All of this activity sounds a lot like the NASCAR accident example you used above. I assume you would agree that timely accident and disabled vehicle reports help to prevent accidents.
I disagree. If people want to ban it, I believe the burden of proof is on them. Besides, that same statement can be made about ANY of the activities that divert your attention from driving. I don’t see a big push to ban eating. Have YOU eaten or otherwise allowed your attention to be diverted while behind the wheel? Because while you did so, you endangered your life and the lives of everone around you. You will argue that it is to a lesser degree, I call BS on that. Practice what you preach.
The problem is that 'most everyone else here can see an important difference, both quantitatively and qualitatively, between eating a hamburger and conducting a phone conversation. Another problem is that most of us who have posted have observed lots of impaired cell phone drivers. Apparently you haven’t, but recently acknowledged you haven’t really been looking either. Now you’re arguing that we should construct our driving laws on the assumption everyone drives as carefully and responsibly as you do. Not a sound basis of public policy. And I’ve pointed out at least two situations, one actual and the other hypothetical, where even a careful driver on a cell phone can fail to escape an accident caused by someone else’s carelessness.
BTW, you’re wrong about the SUV issue. Do some research. Note the difference between collisions (do better) and rollovers (do worse).
Rereading that, I can anticipate one of your likely responses. Because I say public policy shouldn’t be constructed on the assumption everyone drives well doesn’t mean I think it should be constructed on the assumption everyone drives poorly. I think it should be based on how they actually drive, recognizing that there’s a spectrum. Also, as someone pointed out the other day, there’s an enforcement issue. Admittedly, a ban might be overinclusive. I can think of drivers and situations where using a cell phone doesn’t create an unreasonable risk. But a ban also might be the only measure that actually solves the problem. That’s the way things go sometimes. Very few of us are terrorists, yet none of us is allowed to bring sharp objects on airplanes.
Every study I’ve read indicates that the odds of dieing, or being seriously hurt, in an accident are lower for a large SUV than a small car. Generally articles like you read are based on the fact that most SUVs are more likely to roll than most cars. However, the odds of dieing per mile driven is a product of the liklihood of a rollover with the liklihood of being injured in a rollover with a host of other factors. (For example, the probability of low speed vs high speed driving.)
If you honestly think the average driver on a cell phone talking to someone not watching them and their situation intently can do as well as a professional driving in conditions they are trained for who is only relaying his current driving situation and hearing about the same, then I don’t want what your having. I’d rather think straight.
OoooKayyyy. So statistically, your claiming the odds of my being killed by a speeding motorcycle are higher than my odds of being killed by a cell phone wielding driver? And you know this because a national program found “MULTIPLE” instances of this? Let me see, I can name multiple instances of bicyclists being hit and killed by a cell phone wielding driver. I only know local instances, not national, and the number of bike miles ridden in this country is not even a reasonable fraction of the miles driven in cars or motorcycles, and I’m expected to accept that motorcycles are more dangerous to me than cell phone wielding drivers? I may think slowly, but I think.
Well, since the rest of your arguments are so rational, and not rationalizations, I guess I’ll accept your guarantee. Everything I’ve ever read indicates that the single biggest cause of death in car-motorcycle accidents is inattentive drivers turning left in front of on oncoming motorcycle, but clearly that’s wrong. :rolleyes:
Let’s see, I said large SUVs are a hazard to other cars (“hate to see… Civic…”), but safer for the occupants. I also said the analogy was bad because cell phones are a hazard to both the driver and others. You address this how? Oh yeah,
“I have been warned via cell phone by co-workers about accidents on I-95 which allowed me to be prepared for sudden stops or to avoid the congestion completely.”
Sooo, you believe fewer rear endings happen because of cell phone use while driving, and not more? I’d like to see a statiscal analysis of that. I used to drive I-95 and 395 all the time, before cell phones, I never once saw a situation where this applied. Seems to me rear endings only happen when the colliding vehicle is driving dangerously (too fast for the distance between the cars, inattentively, drunk, …).
I never said ban cell phones altogether. Heck, I never even said ban cell phones while driving. I just said it might be a good idea, because it clearly distracts drivers. And, no, while that is closer to the NASCAR situation, it is not the same. The other driver is not watching you, nor your immediate traffic situation.
I will let you in on something. I have a cell phone. I even used it today while driving (handsfree). Ok, I was parked on an interstate, not actually going anywhere. I do agree that there are times that one can responsibly use a phone while driving. Just that statistically, driving while on a cell phone is more dangerous than not.
I have also eaten while driving. Ok, there has never been a vehicle nearby on a divided highway when I actually take a bite, and my wife unpackages the food, but I have chewed while someone was near.
The point we are all trying to make, is that few people spend more than few minutes a week, at worst, bringing food to their mouths. People spend a few minutes adjusting their stereo per week. People spend hours talking on a phone. Even if the phone is the least distracting, statistically it is the most likely to cause accidents.
BTW, drunk driving as a fraction of fatal accidents has dropped by roughly a factor of two, IIRC. Speed limits have changed tremendously. It is hard to look at the overall accident rate, and pick out phones. I have read that the accident rate is on par with that of drunk drivers, but I doubt those statistics are well founded.
Here’s a good example of my understanding about SUVs. Frankly, doesn’t affect me much personally either way. I mean, I don’t like 'em, but that’s mostly an aesthetic objection. OTOH, they do seem to have an easier time seeing me. I have very few close calls with SUVs (unless a cell phone is involved ).
I think it would be a good idea for the folks here to read the Straight Dope article that sparked this discussion. Take a look around and you’ll find plenty of good articles about the dangers of cell phone use as compared to drunk driving.
To be fair, if you google “cell phone driving,” you’ll find studies and commentary going the other way. But, the overwhelming majority is that it’s unsafe.
SUVs are more dangerous to the AVERAGE sized vehicle when the two are involved in an accident. So , because it is convenient for you to use one, you don’t mind that your enhanced safety comes on the backs of those who don’t (or can’t afford) to drive one.
The fact that motorcycles are cut off by oncoming motorists lends credibility to my argument that they are harder to see. Even if you want to argue that it usually (which means not ALWAYS)only harms the rider, so what? We have seatbelt laws to protect us from ourselves. We have helmet laws to protect us from ourselves. Why not ban motorcycles to protect us from ourselves?
Everyone is trying to split hairs over what is an acceptable distraction while driving. I have a problem with that. Someone said “Just that statistically, driving while on a cell phone is more dangerous than not.” PLEASE insert you favorite non-driving related activity here. It holds true for all of them.
I also liked how you cherry-picked one of my examples of cell phone use to ridicule while ignoring the rest.
Actually, I pretty much quoted everything you said.
No one is splitting hairs, you just refuse to acknowledge your analogies are weak, at best. Look, there is evidence that driving well using cell phones endangers both the driver and other vehicles. There is no evidence that motorcycles endanger other users of the road more than a car would. In fact, I’d say it is the other way around. There is evidence that SUVs endanger other drivers, but for large SUVs (Suburban, Excursion, Expedition, Sequoia, and similar) not the driver. The best evidence is to look at insurance rates. It is a little hard to factor in the increase to all wheel drive, which also applies to our Suburu. One of the little expenses of CO is that you need AWD, and any vehicle, car or otherwise costs more to insure.
