Quoth douglips:
I suspect so, too. Sheesh, how’d this one slip by us for so long?
By the way, peace, you can’t move threads. If you have one that you think needs to be moved, drop manhattan or myself an e-mail, and we’ll be glad to do it for you.
peace said:
Jesus, peace. Let me be the second.
Colin Powell is a highly trained, highly experienced, highly decorated American who is an exemplar to many of his fellow citizens, black and white. Al Sharpton is concerned primarily, some would say exclusively, with the improvement of Al Sharpton’s lot.
Sometimes who says something is more important than what was said. That’s what context means.
HIS people? That statement implies that HIS people have one point of view. I guess the only way to respond to that is to say, in the minds of some African-Americans, he sold out; however, in the minds of other African-Americans, he is great role model and the best choice for the job. Is it surprising to you that there is not unanimity?
So, what black leader besides Sharpton (the loon) or Jackson (the ever-hopeful, power-broker-wannabe) has actually said negative things about Powell? (For that matter, I haven’t seen Jackson’s alleged condemnation of Powell, although I suppose I might have missed it.)
We haven’t even seen what “black” Americans think of the appointment. We’ve (apparently) seen the voices of two guys whom the news media like to hold mikes up to because they are always loud and strident and always make good “news.”
Has anyone seen the word from John Conyers? How about from any of the black mayors from the dozen or so places where they are the executives of cities over 500,000 people?
Rather than take ABC’s or CBS’s idea of a “black spokesman,” why not look to see people who have been elected by black voters what they think.
Even among the “self-appointed” leaders, I have seen nothing from Julian Bond or the current president of the NAACP.
Judging “black” reaction based on two guys, particularly Sharpton and Jackson, is the equivalent of judging “white reaction” by quoting David Duke and Rush Limbaugh.
about Colin Powell.
I just wanted to tell Peace that his title made me laugh out loud.
stoid
I once met a woman whose father served under Colin Powell. Said he was the most honorable man he’d ever met. Just relaying the opinion.
I’m suprised that anyone, let alone liberals, can argue with the ‘Powell Doctrine’, which states that American troops should not be deployed unless there is a clear goal, clear ending conditions, and an exit strategy. Those of you who were against the Vietnam war should understand this!
But then, it always amazes me that Liberals are the party of ‘peace’, but seem to be absolutely bloodthirsty when they get into power. Madeline Albright has never seen a conflict that was too irrelevant to spill a little American blood over.
I find it hard to see any basis in criticizing Colin Powell. This is a guy who served two terms in Vietnam, rose from nothing to be a four-star general and chairman of the joint chiefs. In the process, he managed to be a good politician. He never burned any bridges, and he did an excellent job forming and holding together the military coalition in the Gulf.
After he retired, there was immense pressure on him to run for office, by both Democrats and Republicans. But he not only refused, he even refused to reveal his party affiliation because he did not think it was appropriate. He could have parlayed his post-Gulf popularity into immense wealth and power, but he chose not to, other than to write his memoirs.
The guy is brilliant, courageous, and principled. That he should come under fire now by the same Democrats who pleaded with him to run for office for THEM speaks volumes about their true motivation rather than the qualities and abilities of Gen. Colin Powell.
I have to say, that I don’t know a LOT about Powell-he seems like an honorable man. However, a LOT of people do sometimes, and they aren’t. So, I guess I’m undecided on this.
I did ask about My Lai because I had heard about it. Who knows? He may be a great guy, he may be a jerk.
Uhh… Would you care to provide a list of Democrats who have said anything against him other than specific challenges to his postions on specific issues?
Any condemnation by Gore? Clinton? Bradley? Gephardt? Anyone?
Fear, you keep ascribing me what I do not have: an opinion that there is a political entity called “Black America”. As somebody mentioned in a neighboring thread, Black Americans can’t even agree on a common name (nor that I think it is needed; it would be as meaningless as White America). As I aready said, it was not me who said that “… represent Black Americans”. I was always amazed at these generalizations. As I am amazed to hear “Black vote”, Jewish vote", etc. Although I understand that “the majority of Black voters”, etc. is actually meant, this journalistic shortspeak strikes me as mental laziness. “Labor vote” is better. Although formally they are not a political party, de facto labor unions are, and I understand how the members may have common political interests. But I wandered off.
I liked what Jcgmoi and Tom said. I cannot say that I listen very close, but somehow I hear more Al Sharptons than others. Is it because media prefers to sell contovercial figures than, say, a balanced mayor saying what goes without saying? Or is it because Colin Powell happened to be a Republican? A hard-sell to begin with? The most I’ve heard was “charismatic general”. I wonder, will I ever see these words in a row, like in “charismatic Democrat”?
Peace
I meant to say “charismatic Republican”, but come to think of it, charimatic politicians are a rare commodity…
Ashamed Peace
If Saddam Hussein was gone, Iraq would be split into at least five factions warring each other. Then there is Iran and saudi Arabia to consider; they may fight over Iraqi oil. The US and NATO would have to occupy the country for years to come.
What gave you the impression those down on Powell were liberals? Either in this thread or in general?
Albright is a liberal? Is this is the empty abusive sense of the term or is this based on some factual analysis. She is a democrat, true, but that’s not synonymous with liberal (anymore than Republic should be for radical right).
Care to be particular about who has ‘opened fire’ on Powell? This sounds like baseless exageration.
Do you really need to ask that?
(Charasmatic Democrat?: sure you saw those words applied to Clinton who regardless of what one thought of him, has to be admitted was a charistmatic SOB.)
Colounsbury, I totally agree with you. Exactly the same must be said of Uncle Ronnie, he was pesonally charming, even if his policies drove you crazy. Still, you agree, that a “charismatic politician” is a rare breed?
But I’d like to hear your analysis of Colin Powell as a person, not his political standing. After all, most of his life he was not a politician, by definition.
Peace
What’s there to say. As a person he seems to be a straight up guy.
I don’t, for one, mistake being a straight up guy with either being a good politician (meaning good at getting things done) or administrator. That’s not saying Powell is not a good politician (in the wide sense of the term) or a good administrator. For all appearances he is both. I’m only saying sometimes an SOB, e.g. Clinton, who I like frankly, is good for the job.
On him being a politician or not. Well, you know whenever you reach the upper levels of anything, one has to be a wheeler and a dealer. That’s human relations for you. Mistake people make is thinking somehow politics is divorced from human nature. It’s, in my view, just our everyday wheeling, dealing, compromising, small lies and distorting etc. writ large. Ugly, but that’s people.
Or so I see it.
So I think Powell probably has the basic skills. The Q I raised in my somewhat different thread was how those skills fit the particular job. But I’ll leave my ops on that for my thread.
I believe Julian Bond passed away a couple of weeks ago.
Collonsbury, surprisingly, we even agree on Clinton: I also consider him SOB, but he was good for the job. Not arguably the best, but good enough. I’d rather not hear about his girlfriends (it was his private life, but he dragged it in the White House) and such, but life events do not come in nicely wrapped packages, let’s be philosophical about it. Incidentally, it’s very unlikely than Colin will be caught with his pants down although they may not always agree politically. I mean, CP and “the Administration”.
Be as it may, I consider him an outstanding citizen and an excellent role model, his political views being entirely his personal business.
Peace
A few years back, the United States was in a very tense situation with the military autocrats running Haiti. We had imposed an economic embargo, which (like most such embargos) was causing tremendous suffering among the population with absolutely zero effect on the policies of the political leadership. So Clinton decided to occupy Haiti and restore the exiled elected president, Aristide, to power. The question was whether this would be done peacefully or by force.
Among the men sent to try to negotiate a peaceful occupation were Jimmy Carter and Colin Powell. Together, they succeeded. Although Haitian government thugs did commit violence against many Haitian civilians, the occupation was carried out without resistance and Aristide was returned to office.
It is not really clear to me how much of the credit should go to Powell and how much to Carter, but at the least the events showed Powell able to avoid mucking up some delicate negotiations.
Danimal:
Yes, Colin Powell was acutally perfect for the Haiti thing…black, child of carribean immigrants, and just retired from smashing the hell out of another dictator who had displeased the US.
I don’t think you could dig up someone better.
The republicans have been begging Powell to run for office, but he has clearly stated that he doesn’t want to run for anything, but that he would consider an appointed position. And Secretary of State is the most important appointed position in the country, unless you include the supreme court.
I guess we should turn the question around. If GW Bush had NOT appointed Powell for SoS, we’d all be sitting around asking why not. He was an obvious choice, and will probably do a good job. He understands PR and politics (remember his speeches during the Gulf War?). This is the position that he has groomed himself for his entire life. I would be very surprised if he ever runs for president, SoS is what he really wants to be.