I have followed the story of the Korans that were (apparently accidentally) burned at an air force base in Afghanistan. The result was first protests, and now people are getting killed over it.
I know it is especially offensive to Muslims to damage or mistreat Korans, but to commit murder over it seems extreme to me. OTOH I am no expert on Islam or the Middle East. Is this a reaction you would only see from extreme fringe types? If not, how ordinary is this reaction?
Is getting a country to unilaterally go to war, even though the county being warred against has not attacked the attacking country, a common American disposition?
You can get people riled up to do practically anything especially if it feeds their fears and prejudices.
A little too common if you ask me.
Well, here is a list of Wikipedia articles on sports-related riots, including the rioting that went on in Vancouver after the Canucks lost the Stanley Cup. If riots over a religious offense seem extreme, how about a riot over a game loss?
Anyhow, I doubt that this belongs in GQ.
Well, my point isn’t to laugh at Muslims/Middle Easterners. I am just wondering if this is something that people in that part of the world would generally approve of? Is it something they would generally participate in? Or is it a fringey thing that is just getting a lot of attention?
I don’t mean to imply that there is a monopoly on crazy behavior in this part of the world.
Then you have Montreal fans, who riot when they win. :rolleyes:
No, but if the country being warred against was harboring several 1000 terrorists
who DID attack us (all AQ was accessory to 9/11) then you could call our disposition
both common and rerasonable.
And most especially if the fears are real.
War against Taliban and AQ were the result of sound judgement based on unmistakable evidence.
Thanks for the list, Dewey, but how about the murder part?
It’s five and counting over this latest outporing of crazy Muslims.
Go back to the 2005&ff cartoon controversy and we got 100 or more
dead world wide, plus a few embassies burned.
There is a difference between types of riots. Sports riots are a mob running wild. In the case of the Koran murders, there may be a rioting mob, but there also is a point: kill the people defacing the Koran.
Anyway, are you saying the sports riots are basically the same kind of thing as the Koran murders? Comparably common?
I don’t think this is just about killing people because they defaced the Koran (or they are taken to be representative of those who defaced the Koran). The context is suspicion of, or distrust of, the motives for defacing the Koran. We are, after all, talking about an occupying army of a country who has enough experience to know very well that defacing a Koran is highly insulting, and the obvious inference is that the Korans were defaced as a deliberate gesture of hatred, contempt and oppression, not just for the Koran but for those who hold it sacred.
I don’t myself belief that this is the case - never attribute to malicious conspiracy what can be explained by egregious idiocy, especially where an army is concerned - but I’m not completely astonished that others do leap this conclusion.
I don’t condone terrorism, but terrorism is pretty much the only response open to the powerless in a situation like this. So this response was very predictable.
So it’s not just about defacing the Koran. It’s about the huge power imbalance between the occupiers and the occupied in Afghanistan, and about the deep mistrust of motives and of integrity within which this incident is going to be viewed. Accidental Koran destruction in another context wouldn’t elicit this response.
I do not believe most Muslims would kill someone over this - I assume you mean more along the line of supporting the idea of killing someone over this. I would not advise doing so.
I don’t have the stats for this exact situation, but I think it is somewhat analogous to the Cartoon Controversy - or Leaving Islam.
That same poll shows ~85% of Egyptian and Jordanian Muslims support the death penalty for those who leave Islam. It doesn’t take too much of a stretch to think that they would think the same of someone who burned the Koran.
Oh and this one:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06
granted - that doesn’t say what the punishment should be, but I should point out - those are BRITISH Muslims being polled - not people in some third world country.
Keep in mind I think it is pretty easy to see WHY this would be.
It isn’t like you have a basic desire to burn a Koran. Sure you might want to screw your neighbor and or his wife, and steal his Play Station, but does anyone really have some need to burn a book.
Islam is the supreme authority on everything.
This represents a threat to that authority - and freedom of speech is a man made concept - therefore - see number 2.
People can easily look down on Koran burners. I think this is why some people hate gays (ok - not the same reason - but related mentally). They can think - well sure I want to steal some food (have sex with Becky), but at least I don’t burn the Koran / have sex with Becky’s brother.
It supports the whole narrative the west is out to destroy Islam.
Of course - this is a step away from killing someone who didn’t actually burn a Koran, but might look like him - have the same passport, but in that same pew poll above - - depending on the country - between 6% and 46% of Muslims surveyed stated that it was either often sometimes or often necessary to have terrorist attacks against CIVILIANS in the defense of Islam.
In this case it wasn’t CIVILIANS (if I heard the report correctly there were at least two US Soldiers killed, but I am not sure).
I would think support would be higher for that.
To me - I think it is all insane, but if a person seems to be ok with stoning people for adultery - or cutting of limbs for theft - it wouldn’t surprise me if they would certainly support killing someone who burned a Koran - and perhaps see that as an attack against Islam on that country and lash out at innocent people.
If it’s merely a occupier-occupied dynamic, how do you explain the riots over the Jyllands-Posten cartoons of Muhammad and the death of Theo van Gogh?
Falls in the same category as people who murder doctors performing legal abortions, or bomb abortion clinics; or approve of those actions or refuse to condemn the participants, even if they realize they need to sound less fanatic in western countries.
It seems extreme to you, because murder IS the most extreme crime----to you. And to all western cultures.
But other cultures tolerate and even encourage murder. But they don’t call it murder—they call it “family honor killing” , and it is socially acceptable in lots of countries.
People who are willing to murder their own daughter because she is not a virgin, are also willing to murder foreigners who burn a Koran.
Seriously?
The “sound judgement based on unmistakable evidence” is pretty much conceded even by pro-war advocates at this point to have been an utter fiasco of bad decision making based on manipulated, and in many cases, wholly fabricated intelligence. George Bush may well be judged as one of the worst Presidents in US History in no small measure due to his “sound judgement based on unmistakable evidence” in initiating a unilateral war against Iraq.
The huge rise in influence and power of the AQ and the Taliban was directly related to our involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan. AQ especially grew much more powerful as a result of our activities in Iraq.
I think you both have a point. It is useful to me that you reminded me of this aspect of things. Joe Afghanistan is already in quite a hot situation, and it probably takes less to set him off than his counterpart in a calmer part of the world.
Not that the other answers aren’t useful too. Gotta love the 'dope 
Is this attitude a Middle-Eastern thing? No. I doubt that your average Coptic Christian or Israeli Jew would care much about what happens to a Qu’ran. Also, Afghanistan is not in the Middle-East.
If you’re asking if Islam encourages extremism, I think that any group which feels like they’re under attack and has no other way to express themselves will produce extremists. It happens to be Muslims who are occupied right now.
Islam has one of its basic tenets that if you see something wrong, you fight it. What many people miss is that this DOES NOT require or encourage a physical fight. You can hold a jihad bake sale, hand out literature on your topic, and donate the proceeds toward your cause.
Also, the rules are very specific about what happens if you are in a war with somebody. You can only hurt their soldiers. Noncombatants like women and children are strictly off limits. War is war, but anyone calling themselves Muslim who harms an innocent is acting against the clear rules set forth by the Prophet Muhammad himself, in which case it’s safe to assume that the nice people at your local mosque will feel about him the same way that Christians feel about the Unibomber.
I was referring to Afghanistan, was the evidence was clear-cut, and not to Iraq,
where our intelligence was clearly faulty.
You and the rest of the world have forgotten, or perhaps never knew that
bipartisan consensus percieved Saddam Hussein was a threat over 10 years
before BushII was elected. A Democratic President, say Al Gore, would have
gotten the same intelligence that Bush did 2001&ff. It is impossible to say
whether Gore would have embarked on a war against Iraq. However, it is
absolutely certain that the logic of his convictions would have justified his doing so.
What the hell are you talking about? Were you in kindergarten in 2001?
We invaded Afghanistan before we invaded Iraq, and although Taliban
and AQ are both still serious threats they are obvioulsy much less powerful
than when Taliban ruled ~80% of Afghanistan and was providing a home
base for AQ.
AQ did not need any Iraq was to be “spurred” long before 9/11.
No, but an Israeli Jew would care a *lot *if people started burning Torahs. I don’t condone murder, obviously, but I understand the impulse completely.
You Christian-country people don’t understand the importance of holy writings in Islam and Judaism - it simply doesn’t exist to that degree in Christianity. In terms of religious disrespect and sacrilege, burning a Quran or burning a Torah is the equivalent to burning down a church. No less.
Let’s not forget “Kill Rushdie”. Some people will want you killed just for putting the wrong words together. Of course, the Christians would burn you alive in the 15th century if you were caught reading the bible. Power and money.