Is evolution enough to explain he diversity of life?

Evolutionary theory inevitably requires large amounts of time, since the whole idea is that many small changes, when added together, result in very large changes, and the small changes have to happen sequentially, and each takes time. Fine and good, and I’m not arguing against the principle. Two questions arise, however:

  1. Is it reasonable to conclude that all features of living creatures can be explained as the result of successive small changes, each one of which had to confer a selectable advantage?
  2. Has there really been enough time to accommodate all of the necessary changes?

Let’s consider a popular example of evolution in action: albino blind cavefish. Apparently, millions of years ago, populations of the fish were trapped in underground caves, where their eyes and skin pigment served no purpose, and in fact could be detrimental (eyes as a point of infection, pigment (melanin) as a wasteful use of protein). It is not hard to understand how natural selection would result in the eyeless fish we can now study (scales actually grow over the holes where the eyes used to be). This is what we would call microevolution. No new genetic code describing new features appeared. In fact, there was only a loss of genetic information, which is why this example is usually only used to illustrate natural selection, not as serious support for evolutionary theory.

Years ago, when I first heard about the cavefish, my gut feeling was that there wasn’t actually a loss of genetic information, but rather a deactivation of code. We know that environmental factors and events during embryonic development can trigger the activation/deactivation of genes, and I figured that the dark environment probably caused a deactivation of the genes that trigger the growth of the eye. I found it very interesting, then, to discover this article. So it turns out that millions of years of separation and evolution only altered the development of a few features, but you still have a fish which can become a parent to normal fish. Huh.

Regarding the need for TIME … life on this planet is estimated to have appeared around 3.8 billions years ago, not long after the earth itself was formed (4.5 billion years ago). Let’s ignore the coincidence of life spontaneously arising so soon after the earth’s formation, and consider that amount of time: 3.8 billion years. Is that really so much time? An Intel Core Duo processor can execute 59 billion instructions in one second. If you actually break down the number of individual changes that would have had to happen sequentially to arrive at a modern human, then I think you’d find that evolution would have to clip along at a pretty good pace. Since there is obviously going to be a huge spectrum of rate of change, you have to figure that some changes would happen exponentially faster than other changes. In all the years that scientists have been examining the natural world, you’d think we’d have at least ONE clear-cut, irrefutable example of complicated new features arising as the result of sequential mutations which introduced new genetic instructions.

Can all features of living beings result from successive individual changes, each of which provided a selectable advantage?

Yes.

Actually, let’s not ignore it - because this statement illustrates - I believe - a flaw in the way you’re thinking about it all.
On all those planets where this amazing coincidence didn’t happen, is it the case that there are people sitting around complaining that there hasn’t been enough time for them to come into existence? It is only possible to make the observation that ‘wow, everything seems just about right for me to be alive!’, in conditions where that is already true. So it’s not really an amazing coincidence at all.

Yes. 3.8 billion years is plenty of time. Remember that humans are unusually long-lived. Most of the lifeforms in the chain leading to us produced a new generation every year or two, if not sooner.

If the diversity of life did not arrive from a succession of changes, what alternate mechanism are you proposing? Are you suggesting that different life forms on Earth do not share a common ancestor?

There are only two possible outcomes here.

  1. this is a drive by posting and we’ll never see what’s-his-face the original poster again.

  2. this is the beginning of a witnessing thread.

Hardly anyone REALLY wants a discussion about evolution when they start threads that challenge it.

Yes, and yes.

That is what CREATIONISTS call microevolution. Not “we”.

What "coincidence ? It’s just evidence that under the right conditions, life tends to arise fast.

Bad analogy. Evolution not only has had a huge amount of time to work; it’s been doing so in a massively parallel fashion. Like a computer with quadrillions ( or more, probably ) processors.

And 3.8 billion years is a HUGE amount of time.

They probably do, not that it matters. Mutations are a fairly minor part of evolution; reshuffling of existing genes is more common. Claiming that you need new genetic instructions for a new species to appear is like claiming you can’t write a new book without inventing a new word.

Yup.

This is Dertulm’s fourth post on this board… let’s give him the benefit of the doubt…

Yes.

Well, can we pretend I asked it and go ahead and get answers anyway? Not because I disbelieve evolution, but because people ask me this surprisingly often and I’m never sure how to answer beyond, “yes, just trust me on this.”

And here Mosier thought Dertulm was the one witnessing…

What was this amazing coincidence?

I’m not sure which of us you’re accusing of witnessing, **Mosier **or me.

He’s equating an inability to answer every possible question with “witnessing”, with pejorative intent. And then in his next post he’s demonstrating some amazing reading comprehension skills.

For a short answer to that question, I’d just say, “It’s not just billions upon billions of dice throws in a row. It’s millions upon millions of dice throws at once, billions upon billions of times in a row. That’s where the diversity comes from.”

Ah, right! So it’s not like it took 3 billion years to come up with the sea slug, and then *another *3 billion years to come up with the dachshund. 3 billion years X number of species X number of individuals in the species X number of reproductive cycles of each individual. That’s a mighty big number.

That helps, thanks!

Right; only things that actually descended from one another had to evolve one after the other.

Is that just another way of pointing out that, although the OP appears amazed, he didn’t actually use the word ‘amazing’? If so, thanks.

And even in those cases, the population of individuals in a species allows for many small changes to be happening in parallel - some of which may be preserved and spread through the population (as long as they’re small enough not to interfere with interbreeding with the rest of the population).

And then of course, we have not one life form spontaneously combusting, but two: animal & vegetable.

Nobody ever talks about plant life in these threads.

How many evolutionary steps are there from virus to human? If there are a million steps, then you need one step every 4 thousand years. If there are millions of an organism, it doesn’t seem outrageous to hypothesize that one individual may get some one-in-a-million mutation every few years or so.

Really? Is it hypothesized that plant and animal life began independently? I thought they had a single prokaryotic ancestor.