[QUOTE=pkbites]
If god is eternal, if he has always been (sigh :rolleyes: ) what was he doing before he made Earth?
[/QUOTE]
He had a janitorial job cleaning Tiamat’s cave.
If fear (in the “afraid” sense, not the “reverence” sense) is the primary motivation, I would doubt one truly believes anyway. I have wondered if if people would still believe the same way if Hell were an inevitability for everyone, regardless of their actions or faith.
In that hypothetical scenario, I like to think of people trying to turn Earth itself into a Heaven-like existence, just to get a taste of it before boarding the giant handbasket to Hell. By that, I mean that people would be kind and generous regardless of the inevitable Hell, just so that they can savor the little dose of goodness before they went to Hell. That approach would make for pretty excellent believers, and they wouldn’t be compelled to preach fire and brimstone.
That, of course, only works if you subscribe to the theory that, by means of making love come first, one or more people could make Heaven a place on Earth.
[QUOTE=SHAKES]
Furthermore, will said fear alone get one into heaven? Can God be fooled into thinking one loves him? (Assuming said person has fooled him/herself)
[/QUOTE]
It is the fear of hell that has prevented many from believing in God, not the other way around. If something can, or might, harm you badly, good guess that you will run away from it. Fear of hell causes fear of God which causes people to believe He doesn’t exist. Totally false of course, all of it.
As I was growing up in a s Baptist community, it was the ONLY reason to believe.
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath]
Oh, about ten seconds, I suppose. I’m pretty fire-retardant. But it’s not about me being in hell that will make me happy. It’s the fact that there is a Heaven for people who deserve it.
Say, Fred Rogers.
Edit: Yes, I suppose the presence of a Hell does not mandate there is a Heaven, but it does strongly imply it.
[/QUOTE]
Actually I’d say that the presence of a Hell implies that the person in charge is a total and complete bastard, and the odds that anyone will escape his unjust brutality for long are pretty slim. So, the presence of a Hell makes the existence of a heaven pretty unlikely.
In fact, even if I could see a heaven being enjoyed by anyone besides the Tormentor (God), I’d figure it’s be more likely to be an illusion to tantalize me than anything real, because, like I said, nobody evades the arm of a monster for long.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
It is the fear of hell that has prevented many from believing in God, not the other way around.
[/QUOTE]
That right there is a pretty fucking stupid comment. Fear of hell is what keeps the hooples in line. Did Pascal in his aforementioned wager cower into belief or disbelief?
Just because you think some wackjob concept sounds super-duper-awesome, doesn’t make it so. People believe because they are afraid. Afraid of the oblivion of death, afraid of their loved ones ending utterly once they are gone, afraid of burning forever in a lake of fire or whatever.
Now if you excuse me, I need to reflect on my self-aware-sub-atomic particles so I can suck on god’s nipples or something.
[QUOTE=Lobohan]
That right there is a pretty fucking stupid comment. Fear of hell is what keeps the hooples in line. Did Pascal in his aforementioned wager cower into belief or disbelief?
Just because you think some wackjob concept sounds super-duper-awesome, doesn’t make it so. People believe because they are afraid. Afraid of the oblivion of death, afraid of their loved ones ending utterly once they are gone, afraid of burning forever in a lake of fire or whatever.
Now if you excuse me, I need to reflect on my self-aware-sub-atomic particles so I can suck on god’s nipples or something.
[/QUOTE]
Guess you haven’t noticed the fearless believe.
Let’s remove Hell from the equation and just say “fear of punishment” or “fear of God”.
In Proverbs and perhaps elsewhere, it says “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.”
In I John, it says “Perfect (mature) love casts out all fear. One who fears has not been made perfect (mature) in love.”
If there is a kind and fair God, there is PLENTY to be afraid of. When I think of the times that I have been petty, uncaring or just lazy regarding people, even though I’ve never committed any crimes or violations against anyone, I know that God can quite fairly wallop me. This fear is useful in that it can motivate me to start heeding God & caring for people & developing a right relationship with Him and them. If, however, my relationship with God & others never moves beyond being fear-based, then it will remain shallow & self-serving. Any satisfaction in this life or reward in the AfterLife that I get for my belief in God & my good behavior will be muted by such shallow & selfish motivations.
I became an active Christian in my teens for fear of missing the Rapture. I am no longer a Rapturist, but I’m still a Christian, because I’ve learned there are lots of good reasons to trust Christ besides fear of what will happen if I don’t. However, that initial fear did get me started on the journey.
[QUOTE=KRM]
Bob Pascal. His office is two doors down from mine. Who else could it be?
[/QUOTE]
Has a gambling problem, I heard.
[QUOTE=FriarTed]
Let’s remove Hell from the equation and just say “fear of punishment” or “fear of God”.
In Proverbs and perhaps elsewhere, it says “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.”
In I John, it says “Perfect (mature) love casts out all fear. One who fears has not been made perfect (mature) in love.”
If there is a kind and fair God, there is PLENTY to be afraid of. When I think of the times that I have been petty, uncaring or just lazy regarding people, even though I’ve never committed any crimes or violations against anyone, I know that God can quite fairly wallop me. This fear is useful in that it can motivate me to start heeding God & caring for people & developing a right relationship with Him and them. If, however, my relationship with God & others never moves beyond being fear-based, then it will remain shallow & self-serving. Any satisfaction in this life or reward in the AfterLife that I get for my belief in God & my good behavior will be muted by such shallow & selfish motivations.
I became an active Christian in my teens for fear of missing the Rapture. I am no longer a Rapturist, but I’m still a Christian, because I’ve learned there are lots of good reasons to trust Christ besides fear of what will happen if I don’t. However, that initial fear did get me started on the journey.
[/QUOTE]
The best argument I have heard for religion. It would be nice if people would do things that were beneficial for them and others without the movitation of fear, but it just doesn’t happen very often. Fear of cancer causes people to stop smoking. Fear of liver disease cause them to stop drinking, usually after an illness. But, as you say, fear is not a place to dwell. Beyond fear lies the real goal of peace, freedom, and love.