Your honor, the defense rests it’s case.
Given that fundamentalism appears to be the great wellspring of people of all religions who wish to enforce their religion on others, a little thing like demarking “fundie” as pejorative isn’t going to have much effect on average (i.e., non-fundie) folks. Fundamentalist itself is pejorative because of all the things fundamentalists of various stripes have done and/or advocated doing. It’s like making a distinction between National Socialist and Nazi – the label is going to become a pejorative no matter what it is, because the people who are identified with it have said and done so many awful things.
You know, when I was a teenager of dubious moral character I always associated a girl who smoked as weak, and let’s say…available. I found smoking so distasteful that I never capitalized on this “knowledge.” Nonetheless, my ‘theory’ proved quite reliable.
Similarly, as an adult I always associated someone who engaged in name calling as either stupid, or having an intelectually weak argument. This too has proved to be reliable many more times than not. (Regardless of whether I agreed with them in principle) My mother, speaking of profanity, told me once that those who used it lacked the command of the language necessary to insert the correct word. So they used profanity like the filler in a hotdog. It just takes up space and has little nutritional value.
There are some very bright people who can articulate their positions fiercely without resorting to profanity/name calling. William Buckley, Thomas Sowell, George Will, Mario Cuomo, Bill Clinton and John Edwards, to name a few, are people who can debate with the best of them. More importantly, they take some harsh criticism without making name calling a staple of their dialogue.
Even here at SDMB, there are many who argue strenuously without degrading either themselves, their ‘opponent’, or the intellectual vitality of their argument with the use of name calling.
And so I opined that the use of the word “fundie” should be dropped as a means of elevating the intellectual tenor here and making us all look a little smarter. (Perhaps more than we really are…)I had little time to bask in the irony of Homebrew’s insightful follow up, “I prefer fundaloonie” before Evil Captor dropped in with the chance to test out my hypothesis. So, does name calling bely a lack of intellectual currency? Here’s my take…
As a means of defending the use of “fundie” as an appropriate perjorative term, Evil Captor offers us this…
Evil Captor said:
Huh? In what way would being called a “fundie” have on a person who did not indentify themselves as a fundamentalist? I’m really confused.
What is this wellspring? Who does it represent? Can you provide us some [valid] cite that clues us in to the reality that all of those who are fundamentalists are endeavoring to “enforce their religion on others?”
But that’s not the point. Even if you could substantiate the charge that all fundamentalists are the intellectual/moral equivalent of the Taliban, you haven’t made a case why name calling is warranted or how it elevates one’s point.
You would endeavor make a direct comparision between the actions of Fundamentalists and the actions of the Nazis? :rolleyes:
You’ve got me all backwards, Raindog. I don’t care if they’re called fundamentalists or fundies, it means the same thing to me. I’m cool with the consistent use of the term “fundamentalist” because in my eyes fundamentalists is a pejorative. It’s like Nazi in that sense – whether you call them National Socialists or Nazis, they bring up the same image, and it ain’t a pretty one.
Thus, I didn’t endeavor to make the direct comparison you mention. But if you want a list of asshole things fundamentalists of various stripes have supported and done, I’ll be glad to oblige – though a casual search on the dope should turn up plenty of threads detailing what they’ve been up to.
Guess you’ll have to find another straw man to beat up on now, won’t you?
Bolding mine
Not really. You’re giving me enough to work with…
You’re not ascribing the specific sins of the Nazis to Fundamentalists, but you sure are making a qualitative comparison.
FWIW, I don’t care about the use of “fundamentalist” or “fundie” either. Not one bit actually. And, FTR, I have no stake in the name. I don’t care either way.
The OP specifically asked about the use of the word “fundie.” (apparently without regard to anyone’s ideology) However, I’m hard pressed to find an intellectual basis that allows the use of perjorative terms, simply because you disagree with someone. Now, the SDMB is hardly a bastion for non-partisan “truth”, but even if I acccept the SDMB as an unbiased source of information on fundamentalists, (which is absurd on it’s face) you will not be able to find comparisons that equate them qualitatively with Nazism.
So, oblige me. Show me the threads. And so that we understand each other, not just threads where “fundamenatalists” of some flavor have done something you (and the usual suspects here) have found offensive, but that how those actions warrant name calling.
And that’s my point. You can disagree with fundamentalists. (I do most of the time in some fashion) But it is almost always poor form to call your opponent names. (or to call them a name, that while not negative in your mind, is likely to be offensive to the person it’s directed at) Disparaging comments are the weapon of choice for those ill equipped to carry the day on the merits. I see nothing in your post that a fundamentalist with a modicum of intelligence (should we be able to scare one up here) couldn’t make short work of. The worn out use the Nazi card is just tiring.
You want to look taller? Wear stripes. Want to look smarter? Don’t engage in name calling.
It’s only irony if you think Alanis Morisette understood irony. When I use “fundie” or “fundaloonie” I intend to insult. Nothing ironic about that.
Well…I’m not a Morisette fan so I don’t know about that.
However, I still believe that words, in this case “fundie”, have no inherent meaning. You may intend to insult, but it is up to me (and the meaning that I attach to the word) to be insulted. It’s clear what your intent/meaning is, especially now that’s you’ve shared it with me.
Now I’m not big on labels, and I don’t identify myself as a fundamentalist, but even if I did I wouldn’t take offense at the word being directed towards me. Rather than being insulted, I would see the user as being an intellectual dullard; an idiot. As I’ve said, approaching ad nauseum, there is rarely an advantage in calling your opponent names. You can make your point on the merits without using disparaging language. If you can’t, you can always resort to name calling.
When I’m arguing with a fundie, I don’t use the label, for the reason you stated.
But not all discourse is argumentative. Some is purely expressive.
And if I’m telling my friends about a particularly egregious encounter I had with a street-preacher, I might use the word “fundie,” because it communicates on two levels simultaneously:
- It gives factual information about the person I’m describing; and
- It expresses the contempt I feel for that person.
That said, I’m far likelier to use the term “Jesus Crispy,” because that term communicates on yet a third level:
3) It expresses my amusement with the whole situation, and makes the listener giggle.
Daniel
Left Hand of Dorkness said:
That’s cool. But…if a redneck shows enough tact to refrain from using the N word around African Americans, that’s one thing. Wouldn’t it be better to not be a redneck?
Is bigotry and intolerance somehow OK if one is apparently among like minded friends? I appreciate that you’re tactful and wouldn’t accost the street preacher with the term. But what would you think about the man who says, “I only use the word “nigger” when I’m with my friends.”? 
I would also caution you that it is possible that not all your friends share your feelings. Maybe some of them have fundie relatives, or they’ve become interested in someone who is a fundie. Maybe they’re closet fundies themselves.
I’m a construction worker. (I work for myself) I dress like one. I look like one. Yet, I couldn’t pick Toby Keith out of a lineup. I wish I had a nickel for everytime someone used a racial slur in my presence, assuming that we were all of like mind. But the fact is I was married to a black woman, and had bi-racial kids. (I still have the kids…) I’ve often been amazed on just how much people will assume (even about their friends) without really knowing.
Maybe some of those giggling friends were uncomfortable. Maybe they’re offended and unwilling to confront you in a group setting. Maybe they’re not bigots, and are much more open minded and tolerant of fundamentalists than you are. Maybe they’re giggling but don’t care for it.
Raise the bar. Even your friends might look smarter.
Didn’t read past this disgusting and fallacious analogy, which has already been repudiated. Try again without that obnoxious comparisons to racists, and maybe I’ll read it.
Jesus Christ.
Daniel
How did I miss this? Varlosz, you completely missed the poitn. I wasn’t comparing Fundies to Nazis; I was demonstrating how idiotic mad-libs debating is. When you change the words in an argument, you change the argument.
Daniel
Look, you stupid fuck, I said I wasn’t directly comparing fundies with Nazis wrt what they do, just compared the use of the words National Socialist and Nazi with the use of the word fundamentalist with fundie. i have said it twice now. If you can’t understand this, you are too fucking stupid to bother with and I won’t argue with you any further. Of course, it COULD be that you are being deliberately obtuse by pretending not to understand what I am saying to score a cheap rhetorical point, in which case I can only say, “Fuck you, asshole.” I try to be patient, but goddamit, you are being a total ass here.
I’ll show you the threads, but the second request shows that you Just Aren’t Getting It. Now, put aside all that garbage cluttering your brain and listen for a moment: it does not MATTER whether or not fundamentalists are called “fundies” or “glyptodonts” or “carbonic units” or “AF656f4356yts” if their image is so fucking bad that people go “Aaaaargh, GLYPTODONTS at it again!” every time they hear about them. The nomenclature isn’t the problem, it’s what’s ASSOCIATED with the nomenclature that’s the problem.
This is why your “nigger” analogy does not work. “Nigger” was applied to anyone who was black. It was not associated with any behavior, attitudes, lifestyles, cultures or anything of that sort. A black person could be a saint or a genius or a serial killer, it didn’t matter – their beliefs, their actions, their moral characters were all smothered under the term “nigger.”
By contrast, nobody objects to using the term “serial killer” to describe serial killers, because it describes a group united by a certain behavior which is widely condemned, i.e, killing people. The serial killer might love kitty cats, or be very tidy in his personal grooming and housekeeping, but the serial killer behavior trumps all.
Now – and I really want you to pay attention here and not get all confused and befuddled like you did over the National Socialist/nazi, fundamentalist/fundie thing – I am not saying that fundamentalists are serial killers. I am not saying that the things fundamentalists do are as evil as the things serial killers do. But I AM saying that as a group fundamentalists tend to support many things that I find abhorrent, and that therefore there’s no problem with my mind in calling them fundies. It’s a pretty mild term in relation to what I think of them.
Now, for your threads. First of all, lets’ go to the extreme and look at the very worst of fundies. In fact, I would say that some members of THIS group, who advocate killing large numbers of Americans because they do not share their beliefs, ARE on par with Nazis, though I am not prepared to say that of all fundies:
Meet the Christian Reconstructionists
And of course, the fundies are a real friend to science …
I could go on and on, but I do so hate it when people use “cite” as a rhetorical tool, don’t you?
You want to live in a world free of bullshit? Call a thing what it is. Express the truth that it is in your heart. To wit:
They’re a bunch of FUCKIN’ FUNDIES who are trying to drag the U.S. back into the nineteenth century, and the only way I intend to go is KICKIN’ AND SCREAMIN’!!!
I see that I am in Great Debates, not the BBQ pit, and that I violated the rules by calling Raindog some names. I apologize to the readers for that, and specifically, I apologize to Raindog for calling him such names in Great Debates.
[Moderator Hat ON]
I suggest you pay close attention to what forum you’re in, Evil Captor. You already have four warnings on this board. Perhaps a less inflammatory posting style would be appropriate in general in non-Pit forums.
[Moderator Hat OFF]
Just for the record, my father, who supported civil rights, used the “N word” as a non-pejorative term for persons of black ancestry, simply as an ethnic identifier. This was back in the non-PC Fifties, when it was not necessarily an insulting pejorative (though I am sure there were black people who construed it as such – but not in my hometown, where it did not carry that connotation).
“Fundie” is a clipping of “fundamentalist” – which originally meant someone who adhered to the fundamentals of the Christian faith, as defined by the guy who invented the term. Duck Duck Goose, who is hardly anybody’s idea of a bigot, notes that her family and church hold to the original definition of the term.
It has, however, been coopted by a group of Christian rightists whose origins were traced by Karen Armstrong in The Battle for God (worth reading). And as such, it defines a group with particular intolerant, prejudiced, and authoritative mindsets which deserve criticism. When I get someone who attempts to convince me that “Christian love” for a gay person, for example, requires denying him or her civil rights and ostracizing him/her, I use my own coinage of “fundaloonie” to describe him and his less-than-moral misprision of Christian teachings.
Amazing. Just Amazing.
I appreciate the apology but I would be remiss if I didn’t mention that I’m not offended. I’m on record —in this thread actually— as not being offended by such things. I’ve also shared my general impressions of those who resort to name calling.
I find it peculiar that you’re aplogizing, not for calling me some vile names, but for doing it in Great Debates. (As if it is somehow all OK if done in the Pit)
:smack:
Well, yes, it is. Some of us don’t live in a world with cotton candy clouds and aren’t hot-house flowers who wilt at course language. In fact, we often admire well-crafted invective and understand the role of profanity to convey emotion. You can piously assert all you want that profanity is a sign of a weak mind, but that doesn’t make it reality. Very smart and creative people can and do cuss a blue streak when they feel it appropriate. Try it, you might like it.
I was just trying to remember who I picked that one up from earlier today, though I thought the term was “fund’ist”, the apostrophe being important to designate it as a contraction as opposed to a perjorative dimunitive.
Anyhoo, I’m still using it.
Well, it WOULD be OK if done in the Pit, in the sense that you would then be free to follow up with your own colorful adjectives if you so desired. Doing it in Great Debates is unfair. I don’t feel all that guilty about it since I really did just forget we were in GD and not the Pit, but an apology is called for.
I had to laugh out loud at this post. Tell me you’re kidding.
“Well crafted invective?” Are we on the same planet?
I was going to write this entire post with every single word–punctuation marks and all— as hyperlinks to recent threads in the Pit. They share in common a remarkable banality, lack of creativity, and rank profanity for the sake of profanity. This is not some rash of witlessness; it’s pretty much standard fare. When I venture there I’m often struck with the sense that this is the first time they’ve been able to use profanity in the grown up world so they’re throwing everything they know up there.
Is Evil Captor’s post an example of your"well crafted invective?" Help me out here:
This strikes me, caps lock abuse and all, as sophmoric and juvenile. What am I missing? In fact, I can’t remember the last time I saw “well crafted invective.” (There are a couple posters who frquent the pit who are funny. Brutus comes to mind…)
Most days however the profanity is indiscriminate, senseless and entirely witless. It’s not clever or funny. (with rare exception)
You’d be doing me a favor to show me the threads you’re referring to.
H.L. Mencken must be spinning in his grave…