That’s a point of view.
Ha!
I think you’ll find it’s more than one or two. I base this on what I’ve read from atheist Haledi who remain in the closet, as it were, in fear of complete ostracism.
Ostracism is one thing. Not considering someone a Jew is another.
I would take it on a case-by-case basis, since these are nationalities as well as ethnicities. (Like, I hope someone wouldn’t presume that all Americans are white). I had classmates in graduate school who were Iranian, Egyptian, and Greek American who, despite having light skin, did not strike me as “white”, but more like “brown”–similar to how I peg Puerto Ricans and Dominicans. I think it’s because they didn’t identify as white, but as Persian or Arab or Greek.
But they were all first and second generation Americans. Perhaps if they had been more rooted in American culture and more “mainstream” in their habits and expressions, I would have seen them just as white-with-some-flavor. Just like how I see the majority of American Jews, to be honest.
Very interesting… I don’t know what it necessarily means to the larger discussion, but it’s interesting.
I’ve had Turkish and Arab coworkers who “looked white”. What they looked like was “Mediterranean”. If Spaniards and Italians and Croatians and Corsicans are white then they were white.
It’s also clear that speaking California accented English goes a long way to being perceived as white when you’ve got dark hair and an olive complexion. And it’s not just accent, if you grew up in America you just have a different body language than someone who grew up in the Middle East.
not seeing a lot of daylight, based on the stories I’ve read.
Yes to the first 3, the last gets a strong “it depends”, “North African” is quite the spread.
It’s quite different. One can consider someone a “bad Jew”, but a Jew nonetheless. In fact, from an Orthodox viewpoint, one must consider someone a Jew in order to “ostracize” him - why would you ever ostracize a non-Jew?
One can be a lot more lenient toward a non-Jew, whose only obligations (according to Judaism) are to observe a few simple Noahide laws - vs. toward a Jew who is obligated to keep all the 613 mitzvot.
Unless, curiously enough, you convert to another Abrahamic faith. I know Jews who are fine with the concept of a Buddhist Jew. There are fewer( not all of course ) who are good with the concept of a Christian or Muslim Jew - that for many breaks the tribal connection.
Malcolm Gladwell’s mother was born in Jamaica. Her ancestry was apparently a mixture of African, European, and Native American. His father was born in England and was of English ancestry. Gladwell was born in England but lived in Canada from the age of six until he graduated from college. He’s lived in the U.S. ever since then.
Halachic Jewish law would call someone who was a born a Jew a Jew whether they observed or did not, even if they practiced another Abrahamic faith. An apostate Jew perhaps, very much not a good thing, much better to be a righteous Gentile who follows the seven Noachide Laws, but a Jew. Now real Jews may feel a bit differently (certainly most real Jews I know think of “Jews for Jesus” as Christian evangelicals, not Jews) but the overlap is high with the common anti-Semite belief … like the one-drop Black rule it is there, however one was raised, whatever one practiced or how one identified (of course Halachic interpretation is matrilineal and the anti-Semitic one is any which way you Jews … but still overlap.)
I’m saying the difference between “bad Jew” and “not a True Jew” is picayune in its actual effect.
To you, maybe. To Jews, it matters quite a lot. There is no such thing as “true Jew”. It is Jew/not.
Tell that to these guys’ families…
Interesting article. Doesn’t disprove any of my points.
I talked to a lot of Orthodox Jews and have quite a few Orthodox friends. They all agree that faith is not a requirement to be a good Jew. It helps, but it is not a requirement. Confirming to the commandments is. So Orthoprax = good Jew.
No one agrees?
At least we can’t be called “cowards” for refusing to discuss this.
People should not be defined by skin color, heritage, nationality, race, or other artificial categories. These are descriptors, not classifications. Why not throw away this nonsense and do what MLK asked: judge people by the content of their character.
If you must know, ask someone what they call themselves, but don’t let that be a label so that person can be filed away.
I prefer to be called American. When it comes to ethnicity, I am a European mutt, with German, Czech, English, Welsh, and Scottish ancestry. My husband and I embrace the Celtic ancestry, performing Celtic music.
But when people use labels, all kinds of nonsense occurs. A Caucasian from a family that has lived in South Africa for centuries who emigrated to the US is not allowed to call himself “African-American,” yet no one who told him that is condemning Rachel Dolezal or Shaun King, to my knowledge. Children with Hispanic surnames are automatically enrolled in bilingual classes in some schools, without the school ever consulting the families. The students’ home language is assumed to be Spanish.
Rachel Dolezal is pretty much a social outcast these days. She lost her job and everything.
As for myself, I don’t consider myself white in the traditional sense of the word. I am of Italian descent; I came from a middle middle class family that was never part of any country club; My father has (now scrubbed) an arrest record (thankfully, I don’t). Both were nurses, but I myself will probably end up working in a more blue collar occupation. Right now I’m on Medicaid, which should give an idea as to my income. I wouldn’t be welcome in Donald’ Trump’s circle.
Conversion to Islam over the centuries, combined with 20th-century redefinition. Because the Ottoman Empire defined peoples according to the millet system, which was religion-based. All Muslims went into one category, Christians in another, Jews in another. The Muslims in Anatolia switched from speaking Greek to speaking Turkish. (Mostly.)
After World War I the borders of Turkey were pruned back to just Anatolia and part of Thrace. This coincided with the invention of the Turkish ethnicity, which replaced the Muslim millet identification as the Ottoman Empire fell. The result was Turks over here, Arabs over there, Albanians and Bosnians and Pomaks over there… and fuck the Kurds. Meanwhile the Christian millet was broken up into Greeks, Armenians, Slavs, etc.
The Turkish ethnicity as such literally did not exist until the Ottoman Empire collapsed. In its last quarter-century or so, the Young Turks started advocating to define and become their own ethnic group. These new definitions totally fucked over the Kurds, though.
Sorry for bumping this, but i stumbled upon this thread a while back and didn’t make an account but I decided to now and want to give my thoughts. Simply because I too am of European Jewish ancestry. Everyone I’ve met says the Ashkenazi Jews are white and look like Europeans, yet I am much darker then the majority of the Non-Israeli Middle Easterns/North African people I’ve seen in my college and walking the street (I live in Toronto). Look at people like Ariel Schuman and Shaun Weiss. Both are Ashkenazi yet are very swarthy and “ethnic” looking.
I’m not Israeli, but I have heard from an Israeli friend who said that in Israeli, their concept of race is much different and his family and friends at least go more so by ancestry. Like if your roots are Ashkenazi/other European Jewish type, he’ll call you an Israeli of European ancestry and so on. Gal has never outright called herself “white” in any interview or on social media. She has only said where her Jewish ancestors came from, which is Central Europe.
The funny thing is, Gal is “Middle Eastern” and she’s a lot more “darker” then other Middle Easterners like Nasim Pedrad, Gigi/Mohmed Hadid and Amal Clooney. Many of whom are paler then Gal (from what I’ve seen in pictures and interviews of them) and some even have light eyes and hair, yet I’ve heard people call them “not white”. And Halsey is like 3/4 European, 1/4 African American and can definitely pass as an Ethnic European but she still won’t call herself a white girl.
To sum it up, **Imo, If all those people I mentioned and many others who look much more “lighter” then Gal can call themselves not white and get away with it, then so should Gal. I don’t know what “race” she identifies as and race is obviously a messed up concept and varies in every country. But that’s just my two cents. **