Is Harry Reid a pederast? It seems the burden of proof is on him.

[grayhairedmomma]

@mhendo

I might be missing something here, but can anyone explain to me what we would gain by having Romney open his tax returns for us?

It seems to me that there are three main possibilities here:

(1) That Romney has broken the law and illegally evaded paying taxes that he should have paid, by failing to declare income or by taking illegal deductions.

…
Option (1) is incredibly unlikely. Romney has been pursuing the presidency, in one way or another, for over a decade, and he and his advisers would have made damn sure that they took no deductions or other tax minimizations that might be legally questionable and jeopardize his political career even with people who agree with his politics.

Well, like ElvisL1ves, I’m not so quick to dismiss this option. We know that Romney repeatedly lied about information in his tax returns in order to claim residency status in Massachusetts when he ran for governor. And we also know that Romney has repeatedly lied about his status at Bain from 1999-2002.

It is entirely possible, maybe even likely, that he is lying about information in his past few years of returns and he did do something illegal.

But even if he didn’t, I think it is fair for the public to have a chance to see the extent to which he used offshore accounts to shield his money from the IRS. I have no problem with anyone using all the deductions available to winnow down their taxable income, but when you start going through all these hoops to hide money from the IRS, I think that’s shitty.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@grayhairedmomma

Well, like ElvisL1ves, I’m not so quick to dismiss this option. We know that Romney repeatedly lied about information in his tax returns in order to claim residency status in Massachusetts when he ran for governor.

We do?

[Steve_MB]

@mhendo

(trimmed down to relevant point)

(3) That Romney has taken all the deductions that he was allowed by law, and has, as a result, paid an effective tax rate that is lower than many people making much, much less money than him.

(trimmed down to relevant point)

That leaves us with Option (3). But if that’s the case, i’m not sure why we need to see the returns. I already know that, as a guy who makes a lot of money on capital gains and dividends, Romney pays a tax rate of 15% on a large proportion of his income. I also know that there are probably deductions associated with property ownership, business expenses, and other financial dealings that he can legally take to further reduce his tax liability.

While the tax code might sometimes be rather opaque and difficult for someone who is not an expert to understand, it is not a secret. Every legal deduction that Romney has taken is something that is written right there in our public documents. My position on what constitutes a fair tax rate, and on Romney’s suitability to be president, doesn’t hinge on seeing his tax returns.

I fully support a revision of the tax code that would require people with Romney’s levels of wealth to pay more taxes. I believe that income based on capital gains and dividends should be taxed like ordinary income, and i don’t buy the arguments that doing this would lead to a sudden and dramatic unwillingness to invest. I think the Bush tax cuts should be allowed to expire, and i think that the top marginal income tax rate should be increased. But i can’t think of a single one of my opinions on tax reform that would be affected by seeing Romney’s tax return.

It also seems that most of you arguing in this thread have, like me, pretty much made up your mind about what sort of tax system we need, and also about Romney’s lack of suitability to be president. So I’ll ask again: what purpose will be served by making the returns public?

To consider two analogous hypothetical examples:

1. I have here an engineering analysis that shows that Section 42, subsection 3.14 of the Building Code really ought to be tightened up.

2. I have here a news story about day care center full of tiny tots that just collaped to the ground – and the builder didn’t do anything that’s actually illegal.

Are you seriously suggesting that the two scenarios are equally likely to generated needed reform?

[magellan01]

@gamerunknown

What’s a fair wage? What’s fair executive remuneration?

Easy. Whatever the employer and employee agree upon. Tell me, what is unfair about that?

@gamerunknown

These things are relative and should be tied to purchasing power. Any other answer is of the slippery slope/appeal to absurdity variety.

Huh?

@gamerunknown

As for actually discussing policy matters, Romney seems particularly concerned about government debt. The one thing he could have done as a private citizen outside of government is contribute to the government coffers in order to reduce that debt. He was apparently unwilling to do so, but is happy to call for austerity measures for everyone else.

That’s not right. He paid million of dollars in taxes.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

So you say, but without his tax returns…

[grayhairedmomma]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

We do?

We do:

NY Times June 2002

Until early June, Mr. Romney had said that he had paid his taxes as a Massachusetts resident while in Utah. He later acknowledged that in 1999 and 2000 he paid state taxes as a Utah resident and listed himself as either a part-time resident or a non-resident of Massachusetts. He said that in April, after deciding to run for governor, he had amended his 1999 and 2000 tax returns to say that he was a Massachusetts resident.

Today, Mr. Romney said it was ‘‘brought to my attention’’ in late 2001 that his tax forms did not indicate he was a Massachusetts resident, and he said that efforts to change the returns were under way before he became a candidate.

A spokesman for Mr. Romney, Eric Fehrnstrom, declined to say how Mr. Romney learned of the discrepancy.

[elucidator]

I believe that is technically known, in legal circles, as a motion to file an “oopsy-daisy!” petition.

“What? I was living in Utah? Easy mistake to make, Massachussetts being hot, flat, dry and full of Mormons…”

[magellan01]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

So you say, but without his tax returns…

The Romneys earned $21.6 million in 2010 and paid $3 million in income taxes.

From here.

[elucidator]

And that would be one, count 'em, one tax return released. Showing a tax of about 13%. Awesome.

[YogSothoth]

@grayhairedmomma

We do:

NY Times June 2002

Until early June, Mr. Romney had said that he had paid his taxes as a Massachusetts resident while in Utah. He later acknowledged that in 1999 and 2000 he paid state taxes as a Utah resident and listed himself as either a part-time resident or a non-resident of Massachusetts. He said that in April, after deciding to run for governor, he had amended his 1999 and 2000 tax returns to say that he was a Massachusetts resident.

Today, Mr. Romney said it was ‘‘brought to my attention’’ in late 2001 that his tax forms did not indicate he was a Massachusetts resident, and he said that efforts to change the returns were under way before he became a candidate.

A spokesman for Mr. Romney, Eric Fehrnstrom, declined to say how Mr. Romney learned of the discrepancy.

I don’t get it. How do you amend something from a past year that was already turned in? Did he break into the IRS offices Mission Impossible-style, steal them back, change it, then put it back where he found it? Or did he just get a copy of his returns, change them, and release the changed version to the public?

[magellan01]

@elucidator

And that would be one, count 'em, one tax return released. Showing a tax of about 13%. Awesome.

And that would be milliionS. As in 3. Enough to substantiate my assertion to be correct: Romney paid millions to the government. You’re not good at tracking conversations, are you? Now the fact that he paid millionS in one year should have keeping your head down, not popping it up like some Whack-a-Mole. But you do have that hard head…

[magellan01]

@YogSosoth

I don’t get it. How do you amend something from a past year that was already turned in? Did he break into the IRS offices Mission Impossible-style, steal them back, change it, then put it back where he found it? Or did he just get a copy of his returns, change them, and release the changed version to the public?

I’m not sure about this, but I think it’s fairly common for people (people with tax attorneys, anyway) to file an amendment to their tax returns. I know my accountant did it one year. Don’t even remember the reason, but he made it seem like it was zero of a big deal.

[elucidator]

Have the advantage on you, mine is stuffed with brains. More resilient than turds.

[Gagundathar]

I, for one, am fairly certain that Mr. Romney paid the legally minimum amount of taxes that he could. I did so last year myself as well as this year and almost certainly next year, too.

That isn’t the point.

Mr. Romney has failed to follow a significant precedent when it comes to releasing his tax returns. This is factual. His continued failure to do so has become a remarkably resilient talking-point among those who follow the US presidential race.

[pseudotriton_ruber_ruber]

@elucidator

Have the advantage on you, mine is stuffed with brains. More resilient than turds.

How dare you assert that there are multiple turds in Magellan01’s skull? For all we know, pending a voluntary submission by him to an x-ray, there may only be ONE turd in there!

Of course, it would probably be a pretty big one.

[Robot_Arm]

@magellan01

I’m not sure about this, but I think it’s fairly common for people (people with tax attorneys, anyway) to file an amendment to their tax returns. I know my accountant did it one year. Don’t even remember the reason, but he made it seem like it was zero of a big deal.

Yeah, I had to do that last year for my mom’s taxes when we found some additional income from a source we hadn’t known about for the original filing.

I wonder what information Romney discovered, two years after the fact, that made him realize he actually lived in a state two time zones away from where he thought he did.

[magellan01]

@Gagundathar

I, for one, am fairly certain that Mr. Romney paid the legally minimum amount of taxes that he could. I did so last year myself as well as this year and almost certainly next year, too.

That was my assumption, too. But the article I cited also said this:

Romney didn’t take travel deductions related to his income from public speaking, said Ken Brier, a tax attorney in Needham, Massachusetts, who described his returns as “pretty squeaky clean.”

“He’s gone pretty light on his deductions,” Brier said. “I guess he doesn’t want anyone to question it.”

So, it appears that he may be a better American than you or me.

[Little_Nemo]

@John_Mace

You’d feel better if he broke the law rather than obeyed the law? That’s an… interesting perspective.

Romney isn’t responsible for the US tax code, so if there’s something wrong with the code, it ain’t his fault. And if you think he shouldn’t take advantage of deductions in the tax code, I hope you don’t either.

Essentially, yes. A crime committed by an individual is less harmful than a bad policy carried out by a government.

Here’s an example: Which is worse - a car thief or a proposed law that would allow the government to confiscate privately owned cars? I’d say the latter. Because while the government actions might be legal, they’d end up taking a lot more cars than any thief would.

My apologies for responding so late to your post.

[Clothahump]

@TriPolar

If Harry Reid is accused of being a pederast, he can’t disprove it.
If Mitt Romney is accused of not paying taxes, he can disprove it.

It’s pretty simple.

It’s very simple. Is he currently in jail for not paying his taxes? No, he is not. Therefore, he paid them to the satisfaction of the IRS, America’s own version of the Gestapo. If they aren’t after him, nobody else should be.

[Bosstone]

Meh, not going to bother.