How can any property have more value than life itself?
[quote] december: …people complain about the high cost of mailings at the Post Office or overpriced military supplies. Government education seems to be working badly in many areas, leading to growth in home schooling and a demand to experiment with vouchers.
Yes, a lot of us fail to be grateful for the services that we do have. When people are no longer willing to pay the “high cost” of mailing, they will stop mailing. Frankly, I think that postal service is a bargain! Citizens have every reason to complain about the overpricing of anything, including military supplies. No one, including this teacher, is going to award any blue ribbons to public schooling in general.
But my point is that many people who protest “socialism” would scream bloody murder if we took away these socialistic institutions. I think they would feel the same way once we have socialized medicine.
It’s really rather noble of you to be willing to forego having your own medical expenses taken care of.
amanset, the country that I described with high taxes, strong work ethic, socialized health care, long vacations and no poverty is a Scandanavian country. I was really impressed with the way the governmental system works there.
I think basic and medium level healthcare is a fundamental right. Everyone should have access to generic antibiotics, vaccines, doctor visits etc. When the healthcare becomes overly expensive then i do not know because if expensive healthcare is considered a universal right then people will oppose it.
also, the US spends about 14% of GDP on healthcare compared to about 9% in europe.
Because lets be honest. If healthcare was free we wouldn’t be having this debate. the only way to win it is to show that universal healthcare is cheaper than denying universal healthcare.
Maybe this would tell You something:
Yesterday they told in the Swedish television news that a Swedish medicine that lowers the cholestrole (sp?), was allowed to the US market. The expectations where that this medicine alone would give an turnover of several billion dollars.
It is not a secret that every European medicine factory sees an heaven in penetrating to the US market.
Effective and cheapest way top keep people healthy?
I think that (almost) free healtcare, is a must in a democracy.
And it will be cheaper for the society.
Those who like to have private doctors etc. can still have them.
I don’t believe I’ve studied the issue of public health care enough to . On one hand, I am generally distrustful of large-scale government involvement in the operation of an entire segment of the economy. On the other hand, the health care industry is quite a unique sector of the economy - one that, at the moment, does not seem to be performing as society has decided that it should.
That said, I have a question that I would like to pose to those who opposed public health care: do you feel it is morally or logically inconsistent to provide everyone in this country with publically-funded legal services whenever they require them, and not to do the same for medical services? What makes the existence of public defenders more appropriate than the existence of public doctors?
Just a note: The US postal service isn’t an example of a socialized system. It’s nominally a government agency, but it supports itself through it’s own revenues - it receives no tax dollars whatsoever.
The state is placing a burden on someone by charging them with a crime, therefore they’re required to provide the person with an effective means of defense.
So no, I don’t think it’s logically inconsistent. The logical equivelant would be the state owing you medical treatment if it stabbed you.
How can you consider the poor not receiving medical care while the rich can buy all they need equal treatment? That sort of thinking will only encourage a class system, with the poor dying of preventable diseases and the rich living longer healthier lives. It would lead to a huge social divide that could only result in resentment and civil disorder.
The same applies to all governmental provision via taxes: armed forces, roads, welfare, etc. etc. This argument isn’t specific to healthcare. Do you feel the same about any governmental provision?
Forget the ideology for a minute - although I happen to think it’s a vital argument.
It’s cost efficient; you don’t get ripped off for those all important (becalso ause-its-your-health-that-matters-sir) 6 x-rays when 2 will suffice, each one, of course, carrying a profit margin.
I have trouble understanding - outside brainwashing - how people can be happy paying so much more for something that can be provided to all in that society at a significantly cheaper price.
I don’t know that t is that people like paying more. In my case I don’t pay anything. Why? I haven’t needed medical care since I was born (aside from vaccinations). The problem that I and others has is that I, as a healthy person, should not be forced to help pay for less healthy people. And before anyone brings it up as an example, I don’t like the public school system either.
I think the problem here is that many are confusing “right” with “something that would be nice”. If it is a right, it is something that everyone should have reguardless of situation. Did we have a right to universal health care 200 years ago? It would have been nice if we did, but it wasn’t possible. Just because it is possible now doesn’t mean it magically becomes a right. Rights don’t hide in the bushes waiting for the right ammount of money or technology to come around.
One of the big things I wonder when things like this come up…if Universal health care is so great, and works so well, why don’t more people leave this country and move to the countries that have them? I think I will try and do a search to find the numbers of Americans leaving here for Europe, and the numbers of Europeans leaving there for America.
There’s an American traditional belief expressed as, “That government is best which governs least.” This is the motto with which Henry David Thoreau opened his pamphlet, Civil Disobedience. It has been attributed to Thomas Jefferson, but no one has ever found it in any of Jefferson’s writings.
Europe doesn’t have the same tradition about limiting government.
sghoul, I hope nothing ever happens to you. Odds are, however, even if you are healthy as a horse, someday you will slip and break a leg or something. Do you know how much it can cost to fix a broken leg? I found out the hard way; in my case, the first 2 days of care ran about $4500. Luckily, then my insurance kicked in, because total care for that slip-and-fall has probably run about $100,000 over the past several years.
Do you think it’s normal that a) it costs $100,000 to fix a broken leg, and b) our society has not found a way for people without insurance to be able to cover medical expenses for relatively simple things? One day in the hospital can cost more than a month’s wages at minimum wage. And we aren’t talking organ transplants here; basically, they just put me in a bed, drugged me out of my mind, and made sure I was hydrated and had bathroom access. No machines, no IV, nothing but setting the leg and making sure I didn’t hurt myself further.
That’s seriously screwed up. I’m sure we, as a society, can do better.
It is worth noting that a greater amount of money spent on a given system does not necessarily equate to better healtcare. For instance, Cuba acheives a similar life expectancy and rate of infant mortality to some US cities for a mere £7 per head per annum.
The US and Cuba obviously represent the two extremes here: it is important not to compare apples and oranges.
Eva Luna holy shit. 100,00k for a broken leg. Jaysus that’s expensive (somebody has to pay for it and it will trickle down to everyone )
If the same happened here it would cost me ~$20 for the Emergency room and that’s it. Any treatment that comes from the initial visit is covered by the first payment. We also have a limit on how much you can spend a month on prescriptions. After you spend (around €50-100) you claim back everything else.
Ireland’s health system is seriously fucked at the moment (due to mismanagement etc. and under funding) but that’s some wedge you guys have to fork out whether it be out of your pocket or insurance companys.
