Martin Hyde: “The problem is people thinking health care is a necessary humanitarian service, it isn’t. No one should get anything but the absolute bare minimum of care (as in, the doctor stops you from bleeding if you come in with a gunshot wound) if they can’t afford it.”
Wouldn’t you like to have Dr. Hyde in your hospital emergency room. I know there is going to be some very articulate bashing of such an incredibly moronic statement, I just wanted to set up the thread to save everyone else the extra time that they can now devote to slamming this idiot.
Marty is a sociopath. He makes it clear pretty often.
You get used to it.
-Joe
Whoah. I can’t do articulate right now. I’m floored.
[sub]Linky?[/sub]
I think he’s crazy. Why should doctors be forced to provide what he considers to be “a necessary humanitarian service”? Why is conscription an ethical ideal?
It must pay pretty well.
Last I heard, people weren’t forced to go to medical school. I also recall something about “first, do no harm.” But I may be hallucinating that part. :rolleyes:
Robin
So you’re saying that if someone goes to medical school, it’s OK to force them to do whatever society decides they must do.
Hmmmm, interesting. Form a “Medical Corps”, built around a military model, and anyone with a medical degree in this country is automatically entered, so that they may be put to the best use for society as a whole. That way we have the most efficient allocation of resources for the people. Excellent plan. Why worry about the rights of the doctors (and nurses, etc.) when the good of the people is at stake?
I do not think that means what you think it means.
Well its not usually the doctors that are directly forced to provide care, but the hospitals/practices they work for. The doctor/nurse presumably gets paid for their services by the hospital (I suppose if the medical professional worked for themselves it might be an issue, but thats not usually the case for emergency care), so the doc isn’t forced to treat patients who can’t pay anymore then he/she is forced to treat any other patient that is put under his care by the institution he works for.
Of course if the state provided universal health care we could just pay them for their services in all cases and this wouldn’t be an issue.
No-one’s forcing doctors to do anything. You realize, i assume, that doctors in countries with single-payer health systems are not drafted or conscripted, and that they do get paid.
It’s not a case of forcing doctors to treat patients for free. It’s a case of a wealthy society deciding that some of its wealth can usefully and humanely be redistributed in such a way that people get access to basic health care.
Is there a certain amount of coercion involved in such a system? Sure. Taxes are required in order to pay for such a system, and some people will pay more taxes than others. Might some doctors make less money in such a system than in a system where medical treatment is allocated by the free market? Probably, but they know going in that this might be the case.
You are, of course, perfectly welcome to view this as an ethically bankrupt system. But even if one concedes that there are ethical problems with the redistribution of money and resources in this way, in my opinion such a system is far less ethically challenged than one that, even in theory, allows people to go untreated because they don’t have the money to pay.
In Great debates “Michael Moore Tears CNN a New One” post #11.
I think maybe it’s a glass half-full/half-empty thing. As I see it, the reason I can’t be treated isn’t that I don’t have the money to pay but that I don’t have the right to steal.
What mhendo said.
It sucks doing six other things while I’m trying to develop something resembling an argument.
Robin
In many cases there are very real public health considerations. It is in the self-interest of even the most cold-hearted asshole to ensure that people (even poor people!) with contagious diseases are treated for them.
Also, if we let the poor die through lack of health care, who will pick our produce and clean our streets and serve our fast food? We might have to let even more foreigners in to fill their places.
Clearly the issue here is whether health care is a right. Those of you who think requiring that everyone be treated is theft, do you think the same thing about education? Where can I find your pit threads on how universal education is conscripting teachers?
One of the problems is that **Martin **says that you have a right to get your bleeding stopped, but nothing more. What is the principled distinction between a right to sutures and a right to chemotherapy?
Or you could just let all doctors who have received their training at universities and hospitals that accept no federal funding and who themselves have never received any federal financial aid at any time in their academic careers to opt out of treating anyone who does not have a Diner’s Club or American Express Gold Card. Fine with me, I’m sure they both already have lucrative liposuction practices anyway
Actually, if there’s one thing i’ll say for libertarians, it’s that they tend to be consistent. Most libertarians i know would be happy to turn education over to the free market.
And yet, no matter how you choose to explain it, you will be just as dead when you are refused treatment due to your inability to pay. And, much as you infuriate me at times, that’s not an outcome that i consider morally or ethically acceptable in an incredibly wealthy society.
A platinum “Right to Live” card would go to Paris Hilton, in recognition of her enormous value to society. The guy in the alley behind the Kwikee Mart, he gets a cardboard version, signifying that his organs are available for harvesting, should they prove viable. And if an employees child’s life depends on his employer’s health plan, it would make an enormous step forward for tranquil labor-management relations!
Soylent Green isn’t people, Soylent Green is poor people. Very, very different.
Interestingly enough, that platinum card would be paid for by Ms. Hilton, and the money derived thereof used to expand hospital services, fund drug research, and compensate doctors well enough so that they can do free clinic work in addition to their hospital duties. Mr. Cardboard may well end up owing his life to Little Miss Entitlement.