But for centuries, that was a vital part of honor. The European code of chivalry and the Japanese code of Bushido both put central importance on doing what you were ordered.
I don’t see honor as connected to morality at all. Knights and samurai did some terrible things for the sake of honor.
That’s a tricky one. Does the unjust killing of innocents trump your contractual obligation or not?
Fair enough.
Fair enough. I suppose all facets are fairly represented on television, but I’m still dubious about politics, which while a manifestation social values, also has the added characteristic of tricky power games obscuring the politician’s intentions.
I never saw Arrested Development. I never even heard of it until yesterday when someone was bitching about it in the Pit regarding Tracy Lord.
That’s probably true. I tend to be a hopeless romantic.
I think it’s tested in small little ways all the time.
Anaamika I am not sure if there is a more stable definition. Perhaps that is why honor and law don’t go hand in hand. Law is a strict codification, a very precise definition. Honor is what maintains order when it’s less clear.
Erek
That’s probably the most succinct answer to my question I suppose. As to where Honor has gone in our society. Perhaps that sense of honor is anachronistic, and in the information age we need much more precise definitions for things.
Erek
I believe mine was the only post that mentions Clinton, so I assume you’re referring to it.
But I’m completely baffled. My post doesn’t remotely “swipe” at Clinton. One of the things it says is that Republicans who voted to acquit Mr. Clinton acted with honor.
If mine is the post in question, can you expain why you read it as a swipe?
Perhaps Post #24 qualifies?
I agree with those saying that the term ‘honor’ means different things to different people…and at different times in our history. Today I’m not even sure what the term means…it seems to have been suplanted by more specific terms (honesty, duty, principals, etc). The term always was a bit amorphous even when it was in wide use…and how it was used changed from culture to culture and through time.
As for ‘Honor’ being dead its preposterous. Hell, she is still out there kicking ass and not even bothering to take names. Nimitz is still with her and she has a kid of her own! I predict that she will still be launching missiles and wacking bad guys with sword, gun or bare handed for many years to come! 
-XT
The Mahabharata is also filled with people doing things they don’t believe in, for the sake of honor.
Udishtira has just lost everything (including his wife, and his own freedom) in a game of dice. His opponent cancels the debt. Udishtira begins to leave. His opponent challenges Udishtira to one last game. Udishtira knows the stakes will be even higher, and that he’ll lose again. But he accepts the challenge. His caste/honor demands that he accept all challenges.
The Pandava and the Karava (two groups of royal cousins fighting for the crown) are readying for war. An uncle and a warrior teacher, both great examples of moral goodness (except for one incident involving a thumb) love Udishtira and his siblings and know that their cause is just. But, the uncle and the teacher fight on the other side for the cause of a leader they don’t like, and consider immoral. Their honor requires them to do so.
Bricker
I’m a bleeding heat, leftwing Democrat. I didn’t see your post as a swipe or an attempt to inject politics into the thread.
Dan Blather
Excellent point. Jefferson wrote the Declaration. Jefferson owned slaves.
Mswas
OTTOMH, I can’t think of a historical definition of honor that involved morality. For example, counting coup was all about honor but had nothing to do with morality
Sorry I couldn’t respond earlier.
This caused my Irony-meter to short out.
Regards,
Shodan
No, not yours, Brick. PPrince got the one.
I tried living by that code but the judge had a nastier name for it.
Excellent post, DocC. I hope you don’t mind if I nitpick just a wee:
Yudishtira
Kaurava
Indeed, Yudishtira’s “honour” is the defining trait of his character, and his honour leads him along a dangerous path.
It’s interesting to contrast Yudishtira’s honour, over which he never hesitates, to Arjun’s dilemma over his dharma, when Krishna must persuade him that it is his duty to try to kill half the people he loves.
Thank you, Spanky-san, for giving Ling-Ling honor in hat form! [purrrrrr]
Charming.
Belittling the bravery of a war hero is about what I’ve come to expect from you, BrainGlutton.
I’m not belittling his actions, but the idea that he can be properly rewarded with an ornament.
H.G. Wells, in his Outline of History, wrote of Napoleon that he “invented the Legion of Honor, a scheme for decorating men with bits of ribbon that clearly showed his understanding of human nature.”
Do the words “Swift Boat Veterans for Truth” mean anything to you?
Honor isn’t a lost value yet, despite the efforts of some folks to make it so.
I tend to look at it like this. In the case of Daniel Fernandez which would be the persn who did this that I had interactions with, commemorating those actions is a way of him interacting with every one of us. Every kid that went to Daniel Fernandez Elementary, or Daniel Fernandez Intermediate when it was changed to 5-6th rather than K-4, had a relationship with Daniel Fernandez, it was probably where most of us were first introduced to the concept of someone throwing themselves on top of a grenade to save other people. So the medal of honor might seem cheap, but it’s largely about the ceremony surrounding it, the ritual of viewing that medal that will be passed down to the children of his brother’s and sisters etc… It’s not about the trinket and it’s value as a piece of matter, but about what it represents to the human beings doing the presentation of it.
Erek
I’d much rather live in a world where I could feel safe from thieves in strange towns than I would in a world where I could rely on my friends to help me fight the thieves when they do show up.
He can always throw his decorations away and accuse his comrades of committing war crimes on a daily basis.
Of course, if he ever wanted to run for President, he might have some trouble explaining his actions. Assuming he really was a man of honor.
Regards,
Shodan
Heh, yeah, that was kind of a silly ill thought out statement.
Erek