Is internet shaming a good way to combat racism and bigotry?

[Dewey_Finn]

Presumably the jerk was brave enough to say it (by it, I mean whatever it was that offended you) in public. So if you have a problem with what they said, you should be at least as brave and willing to confront them in public.

[iiandyiiii]

@Scumpup

Oh…How about when it is actually bad enough to warrant destroying someone’s livlihood, upending their whole life (and their family’s too), and making them a pariah? Something involving violence perhaps?

You really believe that all public criticism leads to this? Do you have a cite?

I’ll note that you’re publicly calling out the practice of publicly calling out things. Does that mean you think publicly calling out people involves violence? Does that mean that I should publicly call you out?

[you_with_the_face]

@Dewey_Finn

Presumably the jerk was brave enough to say it (by it, I mean whatever it was that offended you) in public. So if you have a problem with what they said, you should be at least as brave and willing to confront them in public.

I don’t think you see the implications of what you’re saying.

I assert the following:

• A man street-harassing a woman is not being “brave”. Calling her “sweet tits”, asking to look up her skirt, and invading her personal space are offensive actions, not brave ones
• If a woman in this position holds her tongue out of fear or momentary speechlessness, this does not make her a coward and it does not mean she forfeits her right to talk about it later online. If she films the encounter, she is under no moral obligation to delete it. She can share it and discuss it with others because free speech allows this.
• Her audience is entitled to their opinions. They are entitled to outrage and anger. Free speech allows them to vent online if they choose. They are not wrong for talking about the guy online; the fact that they were not there in person and in a position to confront the guy matters not a whit.

Do you disagree with any of this? If so, which step?

[Velocity]

People applaud mob vigilantism…as long as it supports their cause.

[FloatyGimpy]

@mikecurtis

just like on this board, at my home, at my work, at most places of education, at most places of worship, etc, etc, etc, people dont deserve ridicule or shaming, its the ideas themselves that are worthy of reproach.

mc

Ridiculous people should be ridiculed. Marine Le Pen, Donald Trump, Martin Shkreli, random racist/homophobes/misogynists who verbally attack innocent strangers all deserve ridicule.

[mikecurtis]

@FloatyGimpy

Ridiculous people should be ridiculed. Marine Le Pen, Donald Trump, Martin Shkreli, random racist/homophobes/misogynists who verbally attack innocent strangers all deserve ridicule.

so you say. here’s what others have said:

[QUOTE=Martin Luther King, Jr]
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Justice Antonin Scalia ]
I attack ideas, I don’t attack people - and some very good people have some very bad ideas.”
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE= Anne Frank]
People can tell you to keep your mouth shut, but that doesn’t stop you from having your own opinion.”
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=D.L. Moody]
The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not to argue about it or to spend time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it.

[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Marcus Aurelius]
The best revenge is to be unlike him who performed the injury.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Mark Twain]
Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured.
[/QUOTE]

i hope you don’t mind if i take their advise over yours.

mc

[FloatyGimpy]

@mikecurtis

i hope you don’t mind if i take their advise over yours.

mc

And I hope you don’t mind if I don’t take the advice of an adult who writes like a child.

[Dewey_Finn]

@you_with_the_face

@Dewey_Finn

Presumably the jerk was brave enough to say it (by it, I mean whatever it was that offended you) in public. So if you have a problem with what they said, you should be at least as brave and willing to confront them in public.

I don’t think you see the implications of what you’re saying.

I assert the following:

• A man street-harassing a woman is not being “brave”. Calling her “sweet tits”, asking to look up her skirt, and invading her personal space are offensive actions, not brave ones
• If a woman in this position holds her tongue out of fear or momentary speechlessness, this does not make her a coward and it does not mean she forfeits her right to talk about it later online. If she films the encounter, she is under no moral obligation to delete it. She can share it and discuss it with others because free speech allows this.
• Her audience is entitled to their opinions. They are entitled to outrage and anger. Free speech allows them to vent online if they choose. They are not wrong for talking about the guy online; the fact that they were not there in person and in a position to confront the guy matters not a whit.

Do you disagree with any of this? If so, which step?

IMO, most people who are being shamed online haven’t misbehaved as badly as the scenario you describe.

[FloatyGimpy]

@Dewey_Finn

IMO, most people who are being shamed online haven’t misbehaved as badly as the scenario you describe.

You must not be familiar with the “FHRITP” incidences.

[Derleth]

@Dewey_Finn

Presumably the jerk was brave enough to say it (by it, I mean whatever it was that offended you) in public. So if you have a problem with what they said, you should be at least as brave and willing to confront them in public.

you with the face has given a good long answer, so I’ll be brief: It’s easy to be brave when you have a society on your side.

[Miller]

@Dewey_Finn

Presumably the jerk was brave enough to say it (by it, I mean whatever it was that offended you) in public. So if you have a problem with what they said, you should be at least as brave and willing to confront them in public.

So, let’s consider the following hypothetical:

I’m walking down the street wearing a Pride t-shirt over my pudgy, middle-aged gut. Four large, muscular men in their 20s see my shirt, and start calling me a faggot, and how it’s disgusting that people like me are allowed out in public, and so forth and so own.

If I don’t confront them right then, in that moment, I’m some sort of a coward? Or at least, noticeably less brave then the four guys using their youth, physical size, and numbers to try and intimidate me?

[you_with_the_face]

@Dewey_Finn

IMO, most people who are being shamed online haven’t misbehaved as badly as the scenario you describe.

Ok, what about the situation in the OP? Is it wrong for someone to write an article and post a video about the wrongness of saying “I wish we’d never let you in this country” during what should’ve been a mundane shopping experience?

I’m just trying to figure out who in that exchange deserves the most opprobrium: the person who showed their ass on tape or the person who caught it on tape.

[Scumpup]

@iiandyiiii

You really believe that all public criticism leads to this? Do you have a cite?

I’ll note that you’re publicly calling out the practice of publicly calling out things. Does that mean you think publicly calling out people involves violence? Does that mean that I should publicly call you out?

I’m not in the mood for word games. Note whatever the hell you want.

[you_with_the_face]

@FloatyGimpy

You must not be familiar with the “FHRITP” incidences.

I had to google what you were referring to. Came across this article about a dude bro who ended up losing his job because someone chose not to suffer his boorish inanity gladly.

What Is FHRITP, and How Did It Get a Guy Fired?

Perhaps some of the posters here think this was an injustice or something, but I think it’s perfectly reasonable that his employer would choose to distance their brand from his behavior by firing him. To argue otherwise means they have to keep somebody on their payroll who they don’t really want.

[Dewey_Finn]

@Miller

@Dewey_Finn

Presumably the jerk was brave enough to say it (by it, I mean whatever it was that offended you) in public. So if you have a problem with what they said, you should be at least as brave and willing to confront them in public.

So, let’s consider the following hypothetical:

I’m walking down the street wearing a Pride t-shirt over my pudgy, middle-aged gut. Four large, muscular men in their 20s see my shirt, and start calling me a faggot, and how it’s disgusting that people like me are allowed out in public, and so forth and so own.

If I don’t confront them right then, in that moment, I’m some sort of a coward? Or at least, noticeably less brave then the four guys using their youth, physical size, and numbers to try and intimidate me?

Do you think that “four large, muscular men in their 20s” who call you a faggot are just going to stand there as you record them? In short, your hypothetical does not describe the typical person who is being shamed online.

[sleestak]

@monstro

I’d like to deter bigoted behavior, yes. That would include being openly racist and anti-Muslim in a public setting.

Then maybe you ought to look at a little bit of psychology. Guilt and shame are pretty related but there are some big differences. For example, guilty people tend to be more pro-social while shamed people are less. What does that mean? It means that shamed people are less likely to behave in a way that benefits other people. Linky.

In other words, if you shame someone they are less likely to alter their behavior.

@monstro

I am under no delusion that we can end bigotry.

I don’t care whether a cunty person is pissed off.

But if they pump their brakes on all their cunty behavior because they don’t want people pointing and laughing at them anymore, or they don’t want to lose their job, then I would consider this a win.

Shame is not the path to what you want. See above.

@monstro

Furthermore, I’d consider it a “win” if other people have second thoughts before they go on a racial tirade in public. Shaming doesn’t just keep the “shame-ee” in check. It also puts others on notice.

Actually, it appears that it doesn’t.

@monstro

Please. Not another lecture about “bubbles”. Bigots don’t operate in “bubbles”. They are all over the internet. In almost every forum I participate (besides this one), they are there. Anyone who doesn’t know there are whole lot of people out there who believe that non-whites are teh evil is either living under a rock or they’re willfully blind.

I’d like to be able to walk into a Trader Joe’s and not have to listen to these people. I understand that I don’t have that right, but I still think it would be ideal. So if I should bump into someone who can’t keep their hateful yap shut, why shouldn’t I try to teach them a lesson? Ignoring them obviously hasn’t worked. Neither has killing them with kindness. Why not hold a mirror to their face and let them experience the stigma they’d like for others to suffer from? You’re not going to be able to convince me that doing this makes the world a worse place. At least not by talking about “bubbles”, as if it is the victims of bigotry who have the closed minds and thus are responsible for all the hatred against us.

You get racial insults every time you go into Trader Joes? I am very sorry to hear that.

However, shame doesn’t work. Identifying the behavior and letting the person know the behavior is unacceptable works. One hits shame, the other guilt.

“You are a bigoted piece of shit” gets you a pissed off person who won’t listen.
“It is wrong to stereotype people” gets you guilt. (Note, this is the suggested by the SPLC)

If you want to change behavior, identify the behavior and label it. If you label the behavior, the person may adjust their thinking. If you insult the person they will just shut you out.

Once again from the SPLC:

“If your goal is to communicate, loaded terms get you nowhere,” said Dr. K.E. Supriya, associate professor of communications at the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, and an expert in the role of gender and cultural identity in communication. “If you simply call someone a racist, a wall goes up.”

Link.

Of course, righteous anger is more fun.

Slee

[Asimovian]

@FloatyGimpy

And I hope you don’t mind if I don’t take the advice of an adult who writes like a child.

Not the forum for insults. Take it elsewhere, if you must.

[Bricker]

Adam Smith was furious at Chick-Fil-A’s support for bigoted marriage laws.

So he drove up to a Chick-Fil-A drive-though window, asked for a cup of water, and:

He proceeded to spew a volley of abuse at the young worker about her company’s stated commitment to “traditional marriage.” He filmed himself saying that “Chick-Fil-A is a hateful corporation” and told the server he didn’t “know how you live with yourself and work here.”

He then uploaded the video.

Smith returned to work at the medical manufacturer Vante to find that the clip had gone viral.
.
.
.
Smith was fired and lost his handsome salary, plus $1 million in stock options.

He moved with his wife Amy and four children to Portland, Ore., where he was appointed CFO for another company.

But he lost the role just two weeks later after bosses realized who he was. Since then, he has struggled to find a lasting gig.

Now, some people have said that the victims of internet shaming are evildoers, and thus deserve their fate.

So too with Adam Smith? Clearly his heart was in the right place with respect to same-sex marriage. What of his fate?

[iiandyiiii]

@Scumpup

I’m not in the mood for word games. Note whatever the hell you want.

I’ll note that your argument makes no sense whatsoever. You’re publicly criticizing something, and it’s absolutely fine to do so. It’s also absolutely fine if other people publicly criticize something they think is bad or wrong.

[iiandyiiii]

@Bricker

Adam Smith was furious at Chick-Fil-A’s support for bigoted marriage laws.

So he drove up to a Chick-Fil-A drive-though window, asked for a cup of water, and:

Now, some people have said that the victims of internet shaming are evildoers, and thus deserve their fate.

So too with Adam Smith? Clearly his heart was in the right place with respect to same-sex marriage. What of his fate?

Not all victims of shaming are “evildoers”, but this fellow acted like a monumental jackass, berated a low-wage working stiff for no good reason, all in public, and found out that a lot companies don’t want to employ a monumental jackass who berates low-wage working stiffs.

I don’t see any injustice in this case. I don’t know if he’s an “evildoer”, and I don’t know if other “victims” of shaming are evildoers, but the examples presented so far (that I’ve noticed, anyway) haven’t struck me as unjust.