[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
Fair enough; I lack the scientific training to determine whether your cites are good or bad.
[/QUOTE]
They’re decent to very good.
Again, there is no “oh my god this is conclusive” data, but there is real promise, at least as an adjuvant therapy.
I don’t know if Thailand drives some farangs (Westerners) crazy or if the country simply attracts a good share of crazy farangs, but I’ve seen a few go completely over the bend. Some have even had to be physically restrained and taken away. I encountered some back in the US, too, of course, but there’s an awful lot who show up here. One guy I knew for about a decade, a fellow American, seemed largely normal apart from a few quirks that anyone could have. He’s having a good “rest” now somewhere, I hear. But the ones who eventually have to be “seen to” almost all seem to have this odd intensity about them, that some idea or other IS right. It may be a good and rational idea or it may be a totally loony idea, but there is always this intensity, bordering on desperation, that this is correct, and you must be a fool or worse to believe otherwise.
I’m picking a little of that up in this thread.
The list I gave that included scleroderma was a list of diseases that I was speculating might respond given what I know about them. There is no research as yet that I know of that suggests they would.
If a disease results from inflammation due to autoimmunity, like Crohn’s and Asthma, it seems reasonable to me that it might respond to helminthic therapy as well.
As to the opinion of any one doctor, this is new stuff. Any particular doctor’s opinion of this stuff is going to depend upon their knowledge of it, how open-minded they are, etc. I have had every reaction from doctors that I have had from the lay population, and for exactly the same reasons.
Earlier in this thread someone mentioned discussing it at the hospital that they work in. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8918941&postcount=11
But I have had others tell me to my face that it was complete BS, and have refused to read the research.
So by all means talk to your friend, and point him to the http://autoimmunetherapies.com/science.html and /links.html page from my web site, as well as to the abstracts here. I hope that he is prepared to put the time in required to learn about this. If he does I am happy to listen to his answer.
Remember, too, that Ovamed was founded by Weinstock based on his research with Summers into TSO and Crohn’s. And, that their therapy is only available to patients with a prescription for TSO treatment. So hundreds if not thousands of doctors in the US and Europe believe enough to write scripts for their patients already.
Ask him about the possibilities for RA as well.
If you want to add one to the list that is great.
Thanks for doing that as well, but good or bad I don’t think one opinion is going to change either of our minds, is it?
One thing to note, a much larger study into Crohn’s vs. hookworm is currently underway at Nottingham which I expect to end late this year or early next with results to be published shortly thereafter.
That might be a better measure of my credibility than the opinion of one doctor.
[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
Fair enough; I lack the scientific training to determine whether your cites are good or bad. However, I will be meeting later this month with rheumatologist Dr. Robert W. Simms, one of the world’s leading researchers on the study of scleroderma at Boston University School of Medicine. I will ask him what he thinks about helminthic therapy as a treatment for scleroderma, which my wife was diagnosed with a year and a half ago. I will report his professional opinion here. Would that be a satisfactory critique of your personal research that you could accept, good or bad, without getting pissed off?
ETA: If you would like to email me any links to websites, articles or research that you have, I will present it to him. My email address is in my profile.
[/QUOTE]
You are a farang living in Thailand, correct?
In fact, I believe you are the only farang, living in Thailand, who is posting to this thread.
Wouldn’t it therefore be that any evidence of farang type behavior you detect in this thread is by definition your own?
[QUOTE=Siam Sam]
I don’t know if Thailand drives some farangs (Westerners) crazy or if the country simply attracts a good share of crazy farangs, but I’ve seen a few go completely over the bend. Some have even had to be physically restrained and taken away. I encountered some back in the US, too, of course, but there’s an awful lot who show up here. One guy I knew for about a decade, a fellow American, seemed largely normal apart from a few quirks that anyone could have. He’s having a good “rest” now somewhere, I hear. But the ones who eventually have to be “seen to” almost all seem to have this odd intensity about them, that some idea or other IS right. It may be a good and rational idea or it may be a totally loony idea, but there is always this intensity, bordering on desperation, that this is correct, and you must be a fool or worse to believe otherwise.
I’m picking a little of that up in this thread.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=scjas]
You are a farang living in Thailand, correct?
In fact, I believe you are the only farang, living in Thailand, who is posting to this thread.
Wouldn’t it therefore be that any evidence of farang type behavior you detect in this thread is by definition your own?
[/QUOTE]
Nope
[QUOTE=Ale]
Nope
[/QUOTE]
… but lacking in specificity and clarity.
Please elaborate on “nope”
Yep?
[QUOTE=scjas]
… but lacking in specificity and clarity.
Please elaborate on “nope”
Yep?
[/QUOTE]
Merely showing up I evaporated your theory, that´s it. Besides it didn´t make much sense to begin with…
Anyway, you really shouldn´t try so hard to convince people, comes out confrontational and induces rejection.
The wiggly worm wonder cure may very well be sound, you have cites that claim effectivity, there´s no need to come all guns ablazing with a “listen up, fools!” attitude and alienating people. Throwing insults around doesn´t help neither.
Now, in all fairness you straightened out pretty nice with your Wrong Foot posts, and you may have noticed that worked better in creating genuine interest on the topic.
So in short, just relax.
So what I think you are saying is that when someone, say from south east asia, tries to wind me up I should just let it slide and let their post do the damage? that I don’t need to get pissed and reply.
is that it?
remember, i have no idea where you are from, i guessed it must be thailand or thereabouts, but i don’t know who you are being new here.
so I had to ask (poor impulse control).
anyway, your advice is good, so i am going to relax and let this thread go where it goes and restrict myself to providing links to facts and research when the discussion calls for it.
thanks.
[QUOTE=Ale]
Merely showing up I evaporated your theory, that´s it. Besides it didn´t make much sense to begin with…
Anyway, you really shouldn´t try so hard to convince people, comes out confrontational and induces rejection.
The wiggly worm wonder cure may very well be sound, you have cites that claim effectivity, there´s no need to come all guns ablazing with a “listen up, fools!” attitude and alienating people. Throwing insults around doesn´t help neither.
Now, in all fairness you straightened out pretty nice with your Wrong Foot posts, and you may have noticed that worked better in creating genuine interest on the topic.
So in short, just relax.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=PandaMom]
With gut problems already, it just seems outrageous to think about introducing a bug INTO the gut to fix it. Just doesn’t seem possible.
[/QUOTE]
When I had gastrointestinal problems severe enough to require hospitalization earlier this year the doctor prescribed (among other things) “probiotics”. Basically, capsules full of bacteria - in other words, adding “bugs” to the gut. In that case, the problem was that the beneficial/harmless “bugs” had been wiped out during my illness and the probiotics helped restore a normal flora in the gut.
The hookworm treatment has been studied for several years now but is not mainstream. Obviously, there are some risks involved in introducing parasites. However, those same parasites have an ability to suppress immune reactions as a survival tactic, and do it at the point of contact in a very localized manner. This is, in many ways, preferable to systemetic used of steroids.
I expect this treatment will become more widely used but it will take time for it to trickle down to many practitioners. Also, it may be reserved for more severe cases that don’t respond to other treatments.
Another consideration is that someone who has a therapeutic hookworm infestion will likely be shedding hookworm eggs into the environment, which may pose a public health problem.
Hookworm molt twice after defecation (adult hookworm produce between 2 and 15 thousand embryos a day) taking eight to nine days to become infective L2 larvae, and only within very narrow environmental parameters (warm, humid and out of direct sunlight). So unless one practices unimaginably poor hygiene or avoids toilets entirely the risk of infection is effectively zero.
I suppose the only real risk is when backpacking, but then a treated individual (who are all told this when we treat them) can avoid even this slight risk by burying their stool three feet deep or by defecating in a plastic bag and burying that just beneath the surface.
Long drop toilets and sewers break the life cycle, which puts the tropics in perspective.
So, not a problem.
As part of my quest to obtain hookworm I enrolled in a study into asthma and hookworm at Nottingham University. During induction they informed me that there was zero risk of infecting others. Sadly, I was in the control group. Hence my trips to the tropics.
[QUOTE=Broomstick]
When I had gastrointestinal problems severe enough to require hospitalization earlier this year the doctor prescribed (among other things) “probiotics”. Basically, capsules full of bacteria - in other words, adding “bugs” to the gut. In that case, the problem was that the beneficial/harmless “bugs” had been wiped out during my illness and the probiotics helped restore a normal flora in the gut.
The hookworm treatment has been studied for several years now but is not mainstream. Obviously, there are some risks involved in introducing parasites. However, those same parasites have an ability to suppress immune reactions as a survival tactic, and do it at the point of contact in a very localized manner. This is, in many ways, preferable to systemetic used of steroids.
I expect this treatment will become more widely used but it will take time for it to trickle down to many practitioners. Also, it may be reserved for more severe cases that don’t respond to other treatments.
Another consideration is that someone who has a therapeutic hookworm infestion will likely be shedding hookworm eggs into the environment, which may pose a public health problem.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=scjas]
You are a farang living in Thailand, correct?
In fact, I believe you are the only farang, living in Thailand, who is posting to this thread.
Wouldn’t it therefore be that any evidence of farang type behavior you detect in this thread is by definition your own?
[/QUOTE]
Oh, don’t mind me. I’m just dying of AIDS, like everyone else in Thailand.
Ah-Choo! (Pardon me. I have a cold.)
[QUOTE=Siam Sam]
Oh, don’t mind me. I’m just dying of AIDS, like everyone else in Thailand.
Ah-Choo! (Pardon me. I have a cold.)
[/QUOTE]
As an observer to this discussion, I’m not understanding the hostility between you and scjas.
It’s the the totally outlandish claims he made off the top of his head about Thailand, demonstrating that not knowing the least bit about something will not prevent him from making statements of dubious “fact.” I’ll leave him alone now, though.
So, in order to cure my asthma I have a choice between paying a doctor (and it looks like real-live MDs are looking into this, not just chiropractors and naturopaths) to infect me with something most of my ancestors had naturally, or to walk barefoot in charming Thailand while basking in the tropical sun, eating terrific food, and drinking fruity rum drinks served by some of the most beautiful women in the world? If Uncle Sam had phrased the offer like that in 1972, leaving out the part about packing an M16 two countries over, I might’ve jumped at it.
Oh, and scjas? You’ve done something right because most people like you would’ve been banned by now. Keep down the spiels and keep up the good references and you might be the first spammer to survive his time as a guest. A tip: It’ll help if you were to expand your repetoire beyond intestinal parasites, though this is one of those rare places where you can find people who are even more into them than you.
Check out “Evolutionary basis for religion” here Evolutionary Basis for Religion - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board
I know how to start a spirited discussion.
Did you read my K5 post? You should read the comments I got to that one: kuro5hin.org
As good (being modest) as that article is the replies are better. It really stimulated strong reactions.
thanks again for the advice.
[QUOTE=dropzone]
Oh, and scjas? You’ve done something right because most people like you would’ve been banned by now. Keep down the spiels and keep up the good references and you might be the first spammer to survive his time as a guest. A tip: It’ll help if you were to expand your repetoire beyond intestinal parasites, though this is one of those rare places where you can find people who are even more into them than you.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Siam Sam]
It’s the the totally outlandish claims he made off the top of his head about Thailand, demonstrating that not knowing the least bit about something will not prevent him from making statements of dubious “fact.” I’ll leave him alone now, though.
[/QUOTE]
You seem to have perfected the art of skating the line between what is acceptable and unacceptable whilst being just irritating enough to satisfy yourself, but not so obnoxious as to merit the attention of the moderators. My hat is off to you.
Someone less circumspect than I, mindful as I am about the rules here preventing insults, might speculate that with skills like yours that you have spent your professional life deep in some Kafkian bureaucracy, or, perhaps, in a relationship with a domineering partner.
Because, after all, speculation like that would be outlandish.
Thanks for pointing out my mistakes earlier in the thread so graciously, I will endeavor to do better.
I will leave you alone now.
scjas, think about how easy it was for you to dismiss thailand as an HIV cesspool without all the facts and you might come to a better understanding as to why people in general might dismiss a non mainstream treatment involving parasitic worms, generally viewed as unpalatable, without all the facts.
[QUOTE=dropzone]
If Uncle Sam had phrased the offer like that in 1972, leaving out the part about packing an M16 two countries over, I might’ve jumped at it.
[/QUOTE]
Shoulda read the fine print.
[QUOTE=shijinn]
scjas, think about how easy it was for you to dismiss thailand as an HIV cesspool without all the facts and you might come to a better understanding as to why people in general might dismiss a non mainstream treatment involving parasitic worms, generally viewed as unpalatable, without all the facts.
[/QUOTE]
What I did was to point out that simply because helminth infection in general, and hookworm infection in particular, were prevalent did not necessarily mean that:
a. They were a health problem at all: if one reads about helminths in general, and hookworm in particular, the morbidity associated with them is entirely due to other factors and is, besides, minor for a tiny proportion of those that have them. Hookworm in a well nourished person causes no ill effects. Zero. Even in areas of malnutrition most hookworm cases are asymptomatic.
b. Made the comparison with AIDS to illustrate the point. Unless one has access to the latest retrovirals HIV has a 100% mortality rate. So although even in areas where HIV is rare the health problems infection causes are acute. Even with retrovirals, because they have such severe side effects. A 1% HIV infection rate is a much greater public health problem than a 25% hookworm infection rate.
My point being that rates of infection, illustrated also by my reference to the common cold, do not necessarily translate to a “health problem”.
My tone could have been “nicer”, but lets face it, the post I was responding too wasn’t phrased neutrally, was it?
Thailand has a sex industry, and it is common knowledge that it has an HIV problem as a result. The fact that it is, apparently, centered somewhere other than the south of Thailand is immaterial to the point I was making.
However, I am sorry I got that part wrong since the point of my answer seems to have been lost because of that error.
For that I apologize, unreservedly. And to Siam Sam in particular, and to everyone in general, my apologies for my part in our sniping. It did nothing to aid the discussion.