Is it CD or is it vinyl? Enquiring ears want to know.

So’s not to hijack the LP to CD Conversion? thread, here’s a related question. Maybe the answer is factual, and maybe it’s debatable.

When I first heard digital music, my immediate impression was that the finer (i.e., more brief) elements got “chopped”. The sound seemed to lack some of the subtle tails where a brief note would rise and fall. Other than that, I have never really noticed anything objectionable about digital recordings.

But in the other thread, lexi claims his vinyl sounds better than digital (actually, that his digital recording off vinyl sounds better than commercially remastered digital).

So which is better, the original vinyl or a remastered CD?

These are two different issues. (vinyl vs. CD and original vs. remastered). A vinyl LP can also be remastered. For a fair comparison, one must contrast LP’s and CD’s pressed from the same master tape.
At any rate, an analog recording will generally sound better than a CD.

by ‘analogue recording’ (English spelling - not having a go…) do you mean Vinyl?
IMHO…
There was a ‘warmth’ to recordings in the fifties and sixties which isn’t evident now… but that came about because of the shortcomings of recording media at that time and the art and skill of the recording engineers and producers.

Or do you just miss the ‘Snap, Crackle and Pop’ of your old vinyl …

To me, CDs can never replace the feeling of walking out of the record shop with twelve inches of vinyl in a cover… maybe even a gatefold cover…
It was like buying more than just the music…
But CDs sound better…

A CD will give a much better reproduction of the sound than is possible with vinyl. An MP3 on the other hand will sound like crap compared to a lot of vinyl, especially if you have a fairly well trained ear. This isn’t really debatable.

As for what sounds better, well now you’ve thrown the debate doors wide open. The best thing to play a guitar through is not an extremely high quality amplifier. A guitar sounds much better if played through an old tube amp. If you play regular music through the tube amp you’ll quickly notice how much it distorts the sound and makes it sound pretty crappy, but for just a guitar it sounds wonderful. Depending on your musical tastes, the particular distortion you get from vinyl may sound pretty darn good to your ears, and if you are really used to it, then a more accurate reproduction of the sound (like a CD) just might sound like crap to you.

I happen to have a fairly well trained ear, and the places where a CD really excels is when the music has a very wide dynamic range (some parts are very very quiet and other parts are very very loud) and also when the music has a lot of high frequency components, like cymbals. Vinyl is better than the old cassette tapes by a huge margin, and even is better than the older high quality reel to reel tape decks, but if you really want to hear certain instruments correctly (especially acoustic guitars and pianos, which are two instruments that are very difficult to reproduce) then a CD is by far the winner.

Vinyl better than the old R2R? It was mastered from R2R in those days (not so long ago…)
I fail to see how the transition to vinyl could have improved the quality of sound…

I wasn’t thinking of the reel to reel decks used in the studio. I was thinking instead of the reel to reel decks that used to be common in home use. The sound from one of these units was far superior to what you got from a cassette tape.

One interesting note though is that I can’t hear the distortion and hiss from the studio reel to reel on a vinyl recording. However, on a CD, because it is so much better in quality, I can actually make out the hiss and distortion of the studio tape on some recordings.

Maybe this is why many people think a CD sounds worse, because you can hear the imperfections better?

There are two components to the CD vs vinyl quality debate, accuracy and what I’ll call ‘feel’ for lack of a better word. Accuracy you can measure in a lab - run the studio master tape thru an amp and measure the results with an oscilloscope. Do the same with the other formats and compare the results. There’s little doubt that the CD would come out better.

The ‘feel’ component is purely subjective, what sounds ‘warm’ to one person may sound ‘fuzzy’ to another.

Analog vs Digital:

Recording on tape and recording on hard drive are two very different skills.

I started recording on reel tapes and held off moving to digital because the first of the digital was expensive and I didn’t care for it as much. But these days, give me digital any day.

Analog was far more expensive and less stable then digital. I’ve got ten analog reels from the 1980’s that have “the stick”. The coating on the mylar tape is breaking down and they can not be played unless you bake the tapes at 130f for several hours (which is an entirely different post all together -one suited for the pit).

Today, for the money, you can fit far more music on a hard drive then a tape. Reel tapes came in 2500 foot reels. The tapes ran at 15 to 30 inches per second. I don’t feel like doing the math to get an absolute time, but a ½ inch 8- track reel running 15 inches per second would hold about 4-5 songs. The ½ reel costs around 50-60 US dollars (2 inch, 32 track reels are around 200 dollars). Common digital recording uses about five megabytes a minute (10 meg a minute for stereo). 5 average length songs (4 minutes) with 8 tracks use about 800MB -but it’s less then that.

The difference in recording in digital vs analog -it’s non-linear. You don’t waste space. If you have a vocal track that only has an overall time of one minute, you aren’t recording those other three minutes. You’ve only used one minute worth of space for that track. So in reality, my example above is perhaps closer to 400-500 MB depending on what you’re recording.

In any case, I just bought a 120 gigabyte hard drive for $120 USD and I’ll be able to record several albums worth of music on it.

There is no way to copy my music from one reel to another reel without losing some quality. By the 7th or 8th generation it’s sounding pretty bad. In digital, I make several copies of the masters and I’m set. I could make a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy all day long and the first copy would sound like the three thousandth copy. In the case of my “sticky” circa 1980’s reels, the only option of saving the music is to bake the tapes and pull all the tracks into the digital domain.

The beauty of digital is “what you put in is what you get out”. Analog wasn’t like that. You had to learn the limitations of your media, the machines, etc. I always used Grandmater 456 reel tapes because I knew what they sounded like. It’s kind of silly to think about what a blank tape sounds like when you stop and think about it. But I knew how something was going to sound once it was on the tape and I knew if I needed to push something a bit harder or louder so it records better on the tape.

So, if you ask me, in a pure recording sense, digital is far better then analog.

CD vs Vinyl:

There have been a fair amount of bad analog to digital remastering done over the years. Many of the first CDs released sounded like crap because the studio engineers were used to working with digital. Also, if it was a reissue, many engineers mastered the CD’s to sound like the master tapes -what was REALLY recorded. The catch was, people were used to hearing the vinyl or cassette reproduction. This resulted in people saying the CD’s sounded “brittle” or “tinny”. In many cases, they just weren’t used to hearing all the high end of what was actually recorded.

Vinyl itself has a number of flaws. Theoretically the average frequency range of the record is quite good (7 Hz-27 kHz) but because of the way the phono needle reproduces the sounds you have to limit some frequencies in your mix if you want the record to work right.

If you created a mix with very low end sounds, that side of the record would be very short -about 5 minutes. This is due to the lower sounds take up more physical space when the record is cut.

Treble also has a problem. If you created a mix with very high highs, you’d end up with transients when you played the record back from the needle wagging back and forth very quickly.

There are also variations between the start of the record and the tail end. The curvature on the inside doesn’t reproduce the high end as well as the outer edge of the record. This is why many records have the loudest music first and the softer “love songs” as the last track.

There is no absolute time on a LP record. It all depends on the mix. More bass equals less overall time because it requires a wider groove. Many engineers had to fit X amount of songs on to one side of a record so to do that they could cut the low end.

On a record, one side of the groove is the left channel, the other the right. Due to how the needle reproduces the sounds, the engineer has limitations on how he can mix elements in the music. Extreme mixes with a loud snare on the left channel, a bass and sharp hi-hat on the right, and some wacky out of phase stereo vocals would wreck havoc during playback.

(Off subject, an old friend had a box of record test cuts of KISS and other bands he worked with back in the day. It was kind of fun to play them back and hear the different mixes they tried. Some had so much treble it distorted on playback while others just sounded like warm goo.)

If you ever get a chance to compare a master tape recording to a record, you’ll notice the difference in how the vinyl reproduces the frequencies. It really is amazing how different the two sound.

With CD’s, you have no limitations. You will always have at least 74 minutes of time. You can arrange the track in whatever order you want. Crank the bass, have treble that rips holes in eardrums, mix anyway you want, it doesn’t matter. The format will take anything you feed it.

You can hear this new freedom in recordings being released today. As the older engineers (with their old rule books) are moving out of the studio, the new guys are coming in and really pushing the limits of mixing. Some CD’s being put out today are mixed in such a way they could not have been released on vinyl. Well,. They could have, but they would have sounded terrible.

While I know many people say they like the sound of vinyl better, it might have more to do with the kind of compression and style of recording used in the analog days. The new digital compression allows you to dynamically strangle the life out of a track. Many engineers are doing this to make the overall track louder. For some reason this has become quite the trend, one I personally can’t stand. I’m not going to get into compression, but in a nutshell it boosts the lower volume sounds and cuts the louder ones so every thing ends up at the same overall volume. As an example, listen to the voice of your average FM DJ. Their voice is compressed at a pretty high ratio, which is why they all sound the same. Heh heh. Overcompression ends up making a track sound flat.

And my last parting shot at vinyl… Every time you play the record it breaks down just a little. CD’s don’t do this because nothing is dragging across the surface when it plays.

I really enjoyed vinyl records though. Nothing was better then buying a new album, ripping open the cellophane and checking out all the cool artwork. Double albums were even cooler.

Ah… 1/4 inch tape, 5 inch reels… strange looking microphone put in front of the TV to record ‘Top Of The Pops’… I remember them :smiley:

Seven Agree with you about compression, IMHO tape compression is far more subtle and natural sounding… or maybe just seems so because you can’t take it to the extremes of digital compression. If you’re not looking for a natural or subtle sound it can be very effective though…

On the subject of vinyl, I used to make techno/hardcore records and it was the trend at the time to get them cut as loud as possible… not big or clever, but made for some interesting conversations at the cutting plant…

Great post Seven. I believe we’ve chatted about this sort of stuff in the past.

Look, I have to concede that digital music is infinitely more practical both in the production phase, and the consumer phase. And it’s a bloody shame that the trend at the moment is to make every CD seem louder than the last CD which was released. The bottom line is that we’re losing any chance of ever hearing those wonderful Led Zeppelin like explosions of soft to loud. Even Nirvana had that soft/loud dynamic going very well but it’s getting exceedingly rare that you hear music like that nowadays which is a real shame.

But as for the vinyl debate? I still have a REGA Planar Three turntable I bought in 1981 for $1,800 - which was a shitload of money for a turntable back then.

And over the last year I’ve bought a few records from www.classicrecords.com - and those guys sell true audiophile 200gram vinyl pressings - very limited runs. They take absolutely mega famous albums, they take the official master release tape and if possible, cut a new female and start a new pressing run. You can buy those discs and they sound awesome.

I really dig playing those albums. You turn off the lights on a moonlit night and enjoy a nice glass of wine and listen to a totally analog experience. Never a digitisation anywhere in the process. It’s cool. It’s undoubtedly a museum experience which is kinda boring for most folks, but I love the fact that a great turntable can still play a magnificent audiophile LP and sound way wicked. On about the 3rd or 4th listen, I usually record the LP through my Aardvaark 24/96 Direct system onto my hard disk and then never play 'em again. The Aardvaark Sound Card is truly a state of the art PC sound card and very highly regarded.

Once the LP is in my PC’s digital domain I won’t play the LP again because I’m aware that they wear out.

But they sound wonderful.

I’ve really enjoyed reading this discussion.

One question I still wonder about… Is it just my perception that digital “chops” some of the edges off the notes, making more of a square wave out of a sine wave (so to speak)? It’s hard to find the words to describe this, but I just get a sense that a digital recording does have less “warmth” because subtle pieces of the music are missing. Compared with an analog recording or a live acoustic performance, anyway.

Obviously, there is some loss of something, because digital is an approximation of analog to some number of binary places (I was about to say “decimal places” :slight_smile: ). But is the approximation something a human ear can really distinguish, or am I just reacting to the absence of background noise?

Just a note, the CD format is also far from the state of the art in digital audio. Super Audio CDs, or SACDs, use 1-bit 2.8224Mhz Direct Stream Digital signals with up to 6 channels (8 using a Dolby matrix coding kludge), compared to 16-bit 44.1Khz Linear PCM signals (stereo only) on conventional CDs. I’m thinking that if you do find CD audio lacking, SACD will more than take up the slack.

If you ignore the medium, analog will always sound better than digital. Always.

When putting the music onto a medium, some losses occur. Vinyl and CDs generate different losses. To many people, the losses involved in vinyl are more “smoothed out” and sound better. The losses in converting to CD digital, where important chunks of spectrum are thrown out, are quite noticable to many people. But not everyone has the same “ears”. For others, it’s the other way.

Also, keep in mind, that while badly maintained vinyl has pops and such, badly maintained CDs also suffers losses over time. The error correction system tries to elide over it, but eventually the CDs will sound even crappier.

40 years from now, when we’re all used to Dolby digital 25.7, people will look back at CDs and think “Why didn’t people notice how awful they sounded?” And then 40 years after that…

Do not jump on the “It’s digital therefore it’s better!” bandwagon. Roger Ebert routinely bewails the shift to digital theaters when there is a superior, cheaper new analog method that no one will touch since it uses the “A”-word.

ftg: While analog can produce better audio quality in theory, we don’t live in a perfect world. The crossover point where vinyl LPs start sounding as good or better than CDs is probably at about fifty times the equipment price [that figure was rectally generated, but I think it’s in the ballpark]. Not to mention the fact that they require far more care to keep sounding good, and degrade with time and playback. The reality is that while analog media CAN sound better than digital, the difficulty and expense of getting equivalent sound quality of an analog medium is far greater than a digital medium.

Oh, and what analog medium are you referring to that’s better AND cheaper than Dolby Digital Theater or DTS Theater?

Some comments above about the album covers’ “feel” was one reason McCartney had such an elaborate gatefold album sleeve for Sgt Pepper, he later said, recalling his past music buying days. But the CDs have greatly improved their “liner notes.”

As a collector & college DJ, the best thing about CDs was they often come from the original tape- stereo, studio chatter, & unknown takes were then discovered & released. With vinyl the studios got very lazy-often using the same worn out master.

Here is Ebert’s web site. Unfortunately, the “Answer Man” columns where he has discussed the digital quagmire are not archived or searchable. The Sun’s general search page doesn’t turn up much that’s relevant. So no luck on providing a cite.

Remember that analog is NOT the same as vinyl (or tape). Take a CD, instead of encoding the music as binary bumps, stamp (upside down) grooves into it just like a vinyl album. Throw on the standard CD coating, and presto, you’ve got yourself a durable, extremely high fidelity, cheap to produce, very compact (doesn’t even have to be as big as a minidisc) analog system that will outperform digital in every conceivable way. Not even a digital snob would be able to say it’s worse than digital. The electronics for players will be even cheaper. A win-win system. Except, no one will buy “analog” products. Plus, manufacturers like more costly formats because of the higher profit margins. (Which is why VCRs are disappearing so quickly. The bulk of them are sold below cost.)

An analog disc format like that wouldn’t work well. Look at laserdisc, now magnify the quality and longevity problems a dozen fold. Data density would be so high that a tiny speck of dust, fingerprint, or minute scratch would completely hose a significant portion of the audio. Since you can’t error correct analog signals, this makes high density solutions that are vulnerable to degradation unworkable.

Of course, you still have the whole issue of recording an original, making a master, and finally making distribution copies with adequate audio quality.

Sure I would. Here goes: It would very likely sound worse than current standard CD quality in several respects. It could be very good, but it most likely wouldn’t be. And it almost certainly won’t sound anywhere near as good as the same signal digitally encoded and played back. And besides the sound quality, there are several usability issues. Saying it would “outperform digital in every conceivable way” is just foolish.

While it is possible to make very good analog recordings, there are problems.

In your example for instance, you risk even tiny flaws in the surface rendering large chunks of the recording unlistenable.

You would have some wow & flutter distortion. Even if it is very low (as good modern turntables are) it’s still exists. There is essentially zero wow & flutter in digital storage. This type of distortion is not very noticeable in many situations, but is very irritating when it is noticeable.

You will have surface noise, and this limits the overall signal to noise ratio. Again, even if it is very low (as good vinyl is) it is still there. IIRC, the best analog recordings had about an 80 db s/n ratio. Even CD level digital gets you 20 db better. This is extremely noticeable in many recordings, and may be the single biggest audible advantage of digital. And with digital you can pick a s/n ratio as pretty much as high as you want by choosing your word length. (Although anything over about 120 db would be pretty worthless.)

What important parts of the spectrum are thrown out? Standard CD quality digital gets you from essentially 1 Hz to 20,000 Hz with nothing “thrown out”. Where are the important missing parts? Tests show that very few people can hear anything near 20k, and that those who can are almost all under 15, and that virtually no musical signal contains any content at those frequencies.

Besides, you are the one who said “analog is NOT the same as vinyl”. You seem to forget that digital is not the same as CDs. You can easily get frequency response as high as you want it by sampling at a higher rate. You want response to 100k Hz? Sample at 250k Hz, and you’ve got it.

Actually they don’t usually sound crappy at all. Generally the error correction is designed such that when it gets to the point where it can no longer correct over a period of time like a couple of milliseconds, they just stop playing. This is either good or bad, depending your point of view.

But you skip over the major point: CDs are much, MUCH more resistant to casual damage. I can drop a CD, accidentally step on it, pick it up and chances are it will still play with no audible changes. On the other hand, drop a vinyl record and step on it (or even your hypothetical analog on a plastic CD-like base recording) and if it plays at all, it will be immediately noticeable. (And I have to admit, the thought of dropping and then stepping on one of my precious pieces of vinyl gives me the willies even as infrequently as I play them.)

It’s just your perception. As long as the signal is within the normal range, then the digital approximation of it will be better than the analog reproduction from tape and vinyl. The only place where tape and vinyl have any advantage is if you overdrive the signal. In that case, once you exceed the dynamic range of the digital signal, it gets clipped very harshly. The clipping isn’t quite so harsh on analog formats. If you are overdriving the signal to the point of clipping though it’s going to sound crappy on any format.

The approximation is below what I can hear (for a CD, not for mp3’s) and I have a fairly well trained ear. The “dynamic range” (the difference between the quietest sound and the loudest sound the system can reproduce) is definately limited by the number of digital bits used. However, if you compare it to vinyl or tape you’ll find that the dynamic range of a CD is much better.

I find that a little hard to believe.

Digital has two main advantages. First of all, it can be copied with absolutely no loss at all. This is never true of analog systems. There will always be some loss between the master and each press copy. Second, digital has significantly better noise immunity. Any imperfection in an analog signal causes distortion, but in a digital signal only an imperfection big enough to flip a bit will cause any distortion.

This sounds like a Windows/Mac argument. One side pitted against the other.

Example: I own AC/DC’s Back in Black in both CD and vinyl. Running both through my home theater system, I can’t tell a difference. Both are loud and proud with plenty of low-end bass, high-end guitar and that pulsing the band gets through in a sub-woofer that few bands can match.

When CD’s were first storming the market I bought an Elvis CD and new CD player for my then-girlfriend’s father. Maybe a new technology, but I grew up on LP’s and thought the CD sounded remarkabely (sp?) good. He hated the sound and proceeded to put the LP version on the player, while subtly telling me the CD player wasn’t a welcome addition.

My suspition to this day is he just wasn’t ready for a media change.

In short (too late), I’ll take either one for sound, but the CD is going to last a lot longer. Sell me on analog only if you can.