x-ray: I am not to blame for your inability to glean what I posted. I posted cites. Got any more queries, take it up in the pit.
By the way, x-ray; your statement that you had to burn a day of leave to get Christmas off is a pure and utter lie. Christmas is one of the recognized federal holidays. It is a day off unless the unit has you scheduled for duty on that day, in which case you are permitted the next normal working day off.
Get off your rear and do, what’s that called again, oh yeah, SEARCH THE MILPERSMAN–THE THING I POSTED AS THE REFERENCE!
Are they? It seems to me if your job observes, say ten holidays and gives ten days of vacation time the Christians get twenty days off and so do you. I suppose you could say you’d rather work on Christmas so you could take another day off instead. But that applies to holidays other than Christmas as well. I don’t particularly care if I have Columbus Day or Veterans Day or President’s Day off, and would just as soon have three extra vacation days to take when I choose to. But I work for a government agency, and the offices are closed on those days.
Which brings me to another point- how much effect does Christmas being a legal holiday have on people employed by private businesses? Christmas is a legal holiday,government offices are closed and therefore everyone who wants the day off in my agency has it off.(Unlike the day after Thanksgiving,which lots of people want off, but not everyone gets) But plenty of private businesses are open on one legal holiday or another and plenty of them close on days that are not legal holidays (my husband has worked for two companies that closed on Jewish holidays and some of my friends worked for companies that closed on the day after Thanksgiving). It seems to me that at most, legal holidays are a shortcut in deciding which days to close for some businesses.
And now my last point- why I believe Christmas is still a legal holiday. A lot of government employees will want to take Christmas off. Remember, government offices are generally only allowed to close on legal holidays. The exceptions are for events such as blizzards and blackouts, not just because a lot of employees want to take the day off. If government agencies are open for business, they must be staffed. In one agency I worked for, there was an actual written rule that only 25% of the employees in a unit could be on leave at any given time. My current agency doesn’t have a written rule, but it seems that only about half the people in a unit can be on approved leave on a particular day. What do you do when Christmas isn’t a legal holiday, but 75% of the employees want it off for one reason or another (they’re Christian, they’re not Christian but celebrate the secular Christmas, they don’t celebrate either, but their families do and they want to attend the traditional family gathering, whatever)? Some people who want the day off are going to get turned down. How do you decide which get their leave approved and which don’t? I don’t know, but I know how it can’t be
done - the agency can’t investigate who is really a Christian and grant the day off to them while denying the others. Meaning that some people will have to work on their religious holiday. I suppose that the same issue could come up with other religions- that there are so many Jewish employees who would want to take Yom Kippur off that they couldn’t all be accomodated without it being a legal holiday. In fact, it’s my understanding that this is the reason NYC public schools are closed on some Jewish holidays (school closings are obviously not restricted to legal holidays). But that seems to be an exception. I know that although I live and work in NYC, I have never heard a non-Christian co-worker complain that leave for a religious holiday was denied because too many others already had leave approved for that day.
A non-Christian taking off Christmas in the U.S. is no more or less ethical than a Christian who lives in the Middle East taking off Kwanza or Passover.
Taking my own advice, I went ahead and searched the MILPERSMAN some more. I realize that I was conflating a few issues together: leave, liberty, holiday, sabbath recognition, permissive temporary duty, and exchanges of duty. To that extent, x-ray, mea culpa.
To the extent that you had to take leave to get Christmas off: that’s is most certainly YOU spouting BS. There is a caveat that I believe you failed to mention. If one’s unit is scheduled to work that date, then you have the option (with the commanding officer’s/officer-in-charge’s permission, of course) to either work that date or take a day of leave. If you are taking a leave period (say a month) and that leave period happens to include Christmas, then Christmas gets charged as a day of leave, just like the other days you’re gone but the unit doesn’t have normal working hours.
I realize this part’s anecdotal; however, it does explain my take on the exchange of duty: on shore duty with a very small unit in Japan, the lone Buddhist in the unit would submit requests to take significant to him Buddhist dates off with a request that he be the person on duty for significant Christian holidays (Christmas, Easter, etc.).
As to different Services having different policies regarding leave: check said MILPERSMAN. You will notice that it applies to the Naval Service, not to the Army & not to the Air Force, etc. They do, of course, have to maintain whatever directions they receive from higher authority (DoD), but each Service does, as indicated, establish its own policies and procedures for the request, granting, and charging of leave, liberty (pass), permissive temporary duty, and exchanges of duty.
I think we both should be happy with this. I see where my mistake was and I hope you see where your mistake was.
I would have posted this sooner today; however, there’s a problem with doing so from home what with the power being out thanks to this morning’s storm, so I’m doing this from the library at college.
To clarify, I’m not saying the current situation is unfair, as in effect I do get the same number of paid days off. Sure, I’d like to be able to choose when ALL of them fall, but I’ll live. I may not celebrate Christmas, but most of my friends do in one form or another, so I get invited to lots of Christmas-related events.
Actually, Columbus Day and a couple of others are “optional holidays” in my office; you can take them off if you want (and many people do, especially those with kids who have the day off of school). But if you don’t, you can use them just like vacation days. This works well for us because we a re a law firm that works primarily with government agencies who do have those days off, so we can do catchup work, or writing, or things that involve client contact rather than government contact, but our normal workflow is disrupted.
We do. We give 9 paid holiday days. I let Jews take a Jewish holiday and instead work on one of the others - which could be Christmas. It makes good business sense in two ways: 1) happier employees, and 2) I get coverage for customer support on holidays without having to pay overtime rates.
Monty, I am posting here again not because of anything personal, but because the purpose of this site is to help stomp out ignorance, and instead you are propagating it.
Folks, if you are not the least bit interested in military leave, skip over this post and please accept my apologies.
Monty, you did not post cites which address the quotes I asked you to cite.
No Monty, I’ll take it up here. This is where you are putting out misinformation. The pit is not for taking up queries.
No Monty, it is not a lie. I called three military buddies today (one retired Navy), and they all concurred that if you want Christmas off, you will be charged a day of leave. It is not a free day off, not even in the Navy. There are no sick days, personal days, or holidays off in the military. If the unit commander gives more personnel off during the holidays (or any other time) because the man-power is not needed, that’s another story.
Yes Monty, I know.
Hitler’s birthday is also a day off unless you are scheduled to work that day. Not being scheduled to work on any day is called a day off. No, you are not permitted the next normal working day off.
Again Monty, its not BS.
I failed to mention that? Why would I? You have the option to work on any day you are scheduled to or take a day of leave in all branches of the military, whether that day is a holiday or not (with the permission of whomever is responsible for granting leave).
No Monty, I don’t see where my mistake was.
You are persisting in your mistake. Please see the MILPERSMAN cited above. Read what it says about leave dates. THAT and not your friends’ conversations is what governs leave and liberty.
I tried to make amends and you are now posting jerkish comments. I’m done with you on this topic.
p.s. Again READ the cited MILPERSMAN. For those who have duty on a federal holiday, they are permitted the next normal working date off.
I said that I spoke to friends about Christmas. If you want Christmas off, you will be charged a day of leave. It is not a free day off, not even in the Navy. Where does your MILPERSMAN say otherwise? You claim you’ve cited it but you haven’t.
Christmas is a holiday because a huge number of people want the day off. Businesses are virtually shut down. It doesn’t make sense to operate on a day that most people stay home with their families. You don’t have to be a Christian to enjoy a day off to spend with your family.
There is nothing dishonest with getting a day off on a day that someone else might use for personal religious reasons.