Is it wrong for people to leave home on Christmas?

Great Debates
1

I don’t think I’ve ever started a Great Debates thread before, but here goes. In this Pit thread, VCO3 insists that anyone who goes to the movies on Christmas Day (or Thanksgiving) is an “asshole” because they made the workers have to miss the day with their families. It was pointed out that not all people celebrate Christmas (or Thanksgiving) and going to the movies is an option for them to have something to do. It was also pointed out that there are many many workers who have to work on Christmas (which I’ll stick with since that’s a much bigger “holiday” than Thanksgiving) such as doctors, nurses, cops, firefighters and more.

I admit to getting very mouthy in that thread, and resorted to name-calling on more than one occasion, as well as spouted some anti-Christian opinions (though I was only talking about Christians who think everyone should live by their rules and laws). I got that out of my system, especially since it turned out that the OP was not religion-based, and won’t do that here.

Even if movie theaters were closed (as they are in New Zealand) people still often have to leave their homes. There could never be such a thing as 100% compliance with staying home on Christmas, because there will always be people who have to work.

I just don’t get the OP’s attitude, because it only seems to apply to movie theater workers. He won’t debate because it’s a Pit thread. I don’t know if he’ll debate here. Even if he doesn’t, I would like to see how this topic fares in an actual debating atmosphere.

2

I would like to see what makes VCO3 think going to a movie is wrong but buying gas is not.

I’m not expecting to find out.

3

If you let the churches run things, it goes from bad to worse.
At least now it’s only big days like Christmas and Good Friday that stores and schools debate.
But a couple of decades ago I lived in an African nation where you couldn’t buy anything on Sunday, and on Saturday after noon you could only buy fresh fruit but not packaged goods like cereal. There were exceptions for daily newspapers but not weekly magazines.

Once they start, they keep it up.

4

I too have been pouring derision on that thread.

Although other dates were stated that were not religiously based, that just increases the amount of days in a year that it is proposed we should all just not go out and inconvenience others with our presence. It is, in effect, a justification of Blue Laws. That we should hold ourselves to a common moral or societal code of conduct. That we should schedule our lives to fit neatly in with everyone else’s. That we should all hold the same values and conduct ourselves in the same way across all borders of religion, wealth, etc. That somehow there exist some universal sode of conduct as applied to capitalism. I disagree that they should exist in a world of where differences abound.

I would like to have another example outside of closing stores where Jews, single people, foreigners, yadyadayadaexamples are expected to suck-up-and-just-deal-for-the-good-of-the-whole to compare this to. I can’t think of any right now.

-Tcat

5

I believe that on Christmas day, the water plants, power stations and nuclear plants should all be unsupervised. Hospitals should be emptied of staff, firemen and ambulance crews should be sitting at home with their families.

Also all SDMB Moderators should be barred from their keyboards, the resulting conflagration would be quite interesting.

6

The casino in Melbourne is one of the few places that are open on Xmas day and it is always packed. Because there is nothing else to do or Xmas day.

7

Sweden has a very strong Lutheran heritage and even though a large part of the population is secular and very liberal on social issues, membership in the Swedish Lutheran Church is still around 75% of the population, though attendence at services is quite low. From 1996 children has to be baptized to become members. Before that, when it was a state church, kids automatically became members, if the parents were members. About 80% of the kids born to Swedish parents are baptized within a few months of birth.

I mention this as a background before going into our national holidays and vacation rules. In short, the support for the church is fairly strong, but few people bother with the religeous aspects of the church or their own membership.

By law, everyone has the right to five weeks vacation (in some EU countries, it’s six weeks). On top of that, we have ten days that are holidays which can or will fall on weekdays (good Friday is obviously always on a Friday, whereas our national holiday - 6th of June - could fall any day of the week). Some years the employers are the winners, e.g. when the 25th and 26th of December fall on a Saturday and Sunday, other years, the employees come out ahead. Of the ten days, six have a religeous background

A few days in connection to the official holidays are de facto days off work: No one works outside of the service industry (including civil service) 24th Dec and anyone who can get away with it will skip work on the 23rd (without using a vacation day). Same goes for Thursday of Easter week, the Friday between Ascension Day (yes it’s an official holiday here) and Saturday. An office worker will then easily get 38 days off a year (depending on what weekdays Christmas falls), not counting ordinary weekends. There are often special deals within companies raising that total. So there is no lack af free time to spend with families, friends, travelling.

When I was a kid (60’s), everything commercial was closed on Good Friday, yes most gas stations too. It was heavily implied and expected that people should stay home or be in church (walking to the service) that day. Not so anymore and nowadays, Good Friday is just another day off work and part of a five day long weekend (Thursday through Monday). Even some muslims here celebrate Christmas, not in the religeous sense, but since they are off work, they might as well give their kids presents and have a party, which is what most Swedish people do anyway. Not going to Church on Christmas has been a long tradition here, especially since the concept of Yule is Norse/Scandinavian. Lots of the things we associate with Christmas have a pagan background anyway, and even someone religeon free, such as I, or the muslims I know, like to have an excuse to have a party and brighten the darkest time of the year. Getting days off work doesn’t hurt either.

So someone has to work those days. Boo hoo. If you take a work in the service industry, as a medical professional, emergency worker, journalist (and even clergy), it’s a prerequisite that you won’t be able to demand working only office hours. You’ll get days off at another time. If you want to work office hours, get an office job or quit complaining.

8

Thank you for that post Charlie Tan. It’s interesting to know facts like that about other countries.

blinkingblinking and Charlie Tan, what about movie theaters? Are they open?

As was pointed out in the other thread, someone will always have to work, and they need to get to work, so transportation workers will be needed, including gas station attendants. All those people have to eat, so at least some diners/restaurants will be open (I like Chinese food on Christmas, myself). Even if there were a martial law situation imposed, “Necessary Personnel only” does that extend to waitresses , bussers and parking lot attendants?

Even to look at the situation from a “Pity the mimimun wage worker” doesn’t quite pan out because first, not everyone who has to work on holidays is a low wage slave, and second, lots of places pay their workers extra and plenty of minimum wage and other workers like to get that extra money and even volunteer for the hours.
FRDE, smile

9

I’m wondering, of countries that celebrate Christmas, what others besides New Zealand have closed movie theaters? And why does NZ have closed movie theaters? Are there no Jews or atheists in NZ? Has anyone tried opening one and it was so dead or there were protests so they decided to drop the idea?

I’ve been going to the movies on Christmas Day for over 30 years (except this last one, and we were on our way to the theater when my husband lost his cell phone, so we went home to get it turned off and other associated problems worked out. I’m an atheist now, but I was a Christian (Lutheran, in fact…part of my family is from Sweden) when I first started.

10

Things are closed basically three days (or rather evenings) per year: Christmas Eve, New Years Eve and Midsummer Eve. Not according to rules or laws, but simply because there are not enough customers these evenings to warrant keeping commercial establishments open. 24 hr gas stations will be open, and of course hospitals and such. Public transportation goes down to minimum (think 3 a.m.) service in the late afternoon. Again, this is not a rule, there is simply not a reason to keep full service. Christmas Eve is the big day of celebration here. Post Christmas sales start 8 a.m. on the 25th. It’s also traditionally the day for going to the movies and has been all of my lifetime. Theatres are packed the 25th.

Other EU countries have stronger laws. **Denmark ** has been trying to protect its inner cities and smaller shops, by restricting opening hours. I think it’s extended now, but at least in the 90’s, most shops closed 5.30. Shopping Malls (The U.S. type) are fairly new in Denmark, having only been around för less than ten years. We’ve had them in Sweden since the late 60’s.

I also think **Germany ** has a fairly strict policy on shops, stores and supermarkets being open on Sundays, though that might’ve changed since my latest visit some three years ago.

11

All christian churches shoud split into two equally sized denominations. The dextro-christians and the levo-christians (blues and reds, odds and evens, your choice) that observe their holidays in different dates. That way there is always half the population ready to work for the half that is on holidays.

12

Brilliant! Also do that for the other religions so, for example, only half of the Muslim population fasts during Ramadan and the other half can eat, thereby ensuring restaurants and other food business can remain profitable.

Kidding aside, here in the Philippines, we have a shitload of holidays because we are (allegedly) devout Catholics and observe every Catholic holiday. But to be sensitive to our minority Muslim population, our past couple of Presidents have added some of their holidays onto the special non-working holidays list. Want to work less? Come to Manila.

Most malls and restaurants are still open on these holidays and I’m sure the workers mind, but I do know a bunch of them who like working the holidays because of the pay-and-a-half law (you get paid 50% of your salary more on the hour).

13

Actually, that’s an easy one: there’s no way going to a movie could possibly be seen as a necessity. A claim that no one should have to work on Christmas is clearly indefensible, but a claim that as few people as possible should have to is at least worth discussing.

Personally, for my own convenience, I’m glad when things are open on holidays, on Sundays, in the middle of the night, etc. But I’m also perfectly happy when a business chooses to close so that its employees don’t have to come in to work then.

I’m all for giving people the day off on their holy or special days whenever possible. If I were in charge of making The Rules, I’d at least consider decreeing that everyone can choose x days when they don’t have to work. (x = some particular number to be determined later.) Christians can choose their holidays, Jews can choose their holidays, etc. Nonreligious people can pick whichever days they want. The tricky part would be what to do if something essential, like a hospital or power company, didn’t have enough employees to stay open on a particular day.

14

Why do we assume that Christians have chirality at all, huh? What about the symmetric Christians? Nobody ever thinks of them.

15

As I said in the other thread, I have no problem with requiring companies to provide a minimum number of days for vacation. Including minimum wage employees. If employees don’t want to take them, fine. And if employers don’t want to pay for off days, that’s fine too. But I think it’s unfair to make people work like dogs without days off. Everyone deserves a time of rest. People aren’t machines.

But I disagree with mandating non-essential businesses close up shop on certain days. If I’m a Muslim and I decide I want to keep my store open during Christmas and I have employees that are willing to work, why is it anyone’s business if I decide to stay open? If you don’t like that I’m ruining your special day by acting like its business as usual, just stay away from my business. But don’t try to “specialize” the day for those who don’t think like you do.

Chrismas is an important time of year for a lot of people, true. But, as I said in the Pit thread, it would do these people well to find jobs that suit their schedules. It can be tough to find jobs like this if you’re in the service sector, yes, but it’s not like you have no options. You can choose to appoint Christmas on another day. You can design the Christmas day celebration to suit your schedule (e.g., opening gifts on Christmas Eve or having a big Christmas breakfast instead of a Christmas dinner). You can also make “Christmas” at the workplace, with your fellow coworkers. The time of year doesn’t have to be dreary. And out of all the religious holidays, Christmas seems to be the easiest to accomodate. Few people actually do anything religiousy on that day. It’s not like meditation and fasting are required; many churches aren’t even open. So really, the only thing that is being missed is time with family. I can think of worse things than missing 8 hours of family time. It can be a sad thing to not see family, but it doesn’t call for massive legislation IMHO.

I admit I would be pretty sad if I had to work on Christmas, not just because I would miss out on the festivities and seeing people, but because I know my parents would feel slighted by my absence (they don’t see me but once or twice a year). But that’s part of the reason why I avoided service careers, like retail and restaurant. I’m sure service people wouldn’t like to muck around in waist-high mud like I do all day. But you don’t see me complaining about it like someone’s forcing a gun to my head. It’s a part of my job description and I understood that going in.

16

It’s an entertainment that millions of people enjoy. If no one wanted to be entertained in such a way, they’d stay home and theaters would close for lack of business. No, it’s not a necessity, but if it’s an option, as it is in America and Sweden, people shouldn’t be made to feel like they’re doing something bad by going.

17

I was always delighted to work on Christmas and Easter because I was paid overtime.

18

I used to work for a place that had paid time off. We had a “bank” of PTO that guaranteed us a lot of days off. The problem was that we also took PTO from our banks for holidays, and those were dictated by the company. So one year my boss and I both got in trouble because we worked on Memorial Day. It was a rainy, cold, gloomy day, and I didn’t mind working. HR had a fit, saying that I, being an hourly employee, should have gotten time and a half! Okay. So I worked on that day. Should I voluntarily give up 8 hours of my PTO, even though I worked? I didn’t think so, and neither did my boss. (She got in trouble not for working, but for allegedly making me work–which she didn’t, it was completely voluntary.)

We had another employee who threw a fit because she was Jewish and had to use her PTO for Christmas because our office was closed. She and I both had the same thought: It’s my PTO and I’ll take the day off if I want to, and not if I don’t. But it’s a problem. If you don’t mind working on Christmas but your office is closed, there’s 8 hours of your holiday that you could take a different time–and I’d rather. I don’t mind working on Christmas. (No more than any other day.) But I will also take any day off I can get.

19

I work in a prison. I assume we’re also on the list for a Chritsmas day off? Because I’m thinking while we’ll all enjoy the holiday with our families, we’re going to be real busy cleaning things up on December 26.

20

Good lord let me tell you there’s been fewer more difficult things to do than find a restaurant which was open this past Christmas eve here in Texas after my friends and I attended a football game.

Everything except TGI Fridays and Jack in the Box was shut down, and both of those were absolutely packed. The Fridays line was at least an hour long so we went and waited at JitB for around 20 minutes to get some grub.

I do think it’s ridiculous some people get their undergarments in a bunch over such things because I guess they just assume everyone celebrates the same holidays as they do. Nevermind the Jewish people working at those jobs, wishing to get more hours in or whatever. But really, when will religious people find something to STOP bitching about?!