And if Mr. Hughes put his coat down and his soap fell out, and everyone knew that it was because he didn’t trust your soap, would that be rude?
I like the fact that the analogy you come up with for someone that insists on carrying a concealed weapon into someone’s house for a dinner party is a man as paranoid as Hughes because that’s not too far from how I see it. For all the talk about how someone that doesn’t want a guest carrying a gun into their house is just “scared of guns” it seems that the real fear is in feeling you need to be armed to eat a brat on my deck.
The fact remains that in all social circles I’m aware of (Midwestern suburbia, East-coast urban, and Midwestern rural) if your host discovered that you were wearing a firearm and didn’t inform them of that fact ahead of time, you would be asked to leave and considered rude by all in attendance. You and Una can disagree all you want, and consider us ignorant and misguided, but it’s still the reality of the situation.
It’s really quite simple - if you want to carry a weapon in someone else’s home notify them that you have a permit and ask them if they mind. Is it really so hard to show that amount of deference to your host?
Well I’ve been following this discussion with some interest and would like to make a couple of points:
- Here in Texas a man’s home is his castle
- A homeowner won’t know whether or not my ccw license is valid or not, and could very well “fear for his/her life”
- If you carry in a man’s castle and he doesn’t know about it or know you very well, don’t be surprised to find yourself looking at the business end of a 12-gauge
Personally, I would not enter a someones home carrying if I did not know the homeowner very well and did not ask permission from my host. Homeowner rights are very important here in Texas, and would pretty much trump any card you may have in your wallet.
Just yesterday morning an unarmed 17-yo was shot and killed by a homeowner, basically for trespassing, the homeowner was “in fear for his life”. The homeowner will be referred to the grand jury, with no charge.
Let’s rephrase that question: isn’t it reasonable that if a person has an objection to others performing a lawful, legal, exercise of their rights, that they ought to inform others of such in advance? As the law (in many States) requires them to do?
And let me see if I can sum up the blatant non-response to my questions in this thread: some people allege that they want to know who has a gun from a safety standpoint, yet not one person is willing to say they would openly ask their friends and any and all visitors to find out if they had a criminal record or one of hard drug use. Nor would they expect someone who was such to announce such upon entering their house. Nor has anyone said they would deny access to their house to one of their friends, family, or visitors who announced such. However, they see no problem in asking a lawful, legal CCW holder, who ironically presents much less risk than a criminal or hard drug user, and they expect the person who represents less risk to proactively announce to the house that they’re carrying, and they would deny them entrance to their house.
Hm.
The only possible conclusion one can draw from this is that it really is all about the fear of guns, and not any actual effort to improve safety. And that’s OK if you’re afraid of others having a firearm in your house above and beyond the other risks, it’s your right to be afraid in that context, but at least admit that’s the reason so we can have an honest discussion.
Of course you have a right, which must be respected, to not allow people onto your property. This “great debate” would go much better for folks if they would cease inventing problems which are not relevant to the point at hand. The question on the table is is it ethical to carry a concealed weapon on another’s private property without their knowledge? I say "yes, until the person carrying has been given knowledge that such is not allowed, after which they should respect the wishes of the homeowner.
Is that really so unreasonable and radical a position? Really? That I simply assume that I can exercise my right, recognized with full approval from the numerous authorities I need not list again, without running around telling the world? Really?
Yes, you got it. Irrational or not from you point of view, keep your gun out of my house. Period.
BTW, if you have any napalm or explosives in your pockets, keep them out too.
It sounds like a lot of Castle Doctrine supporters really only believe their wn homes are sacrosanct.
Of course it’s unethical to sneak a gat into somebody else’s house without telling them, especially if you know they don’t want guns in their home. I can’t believe this question even has to be asked. What kind of glowering, brooding psychopath feels they have to go strapped to have dinner with friends or watch a ballgame? I have three small children in the house. What’s wrong with you? Are you afraid of me? If you’re that terrified of me, then don’t come to my house.
What is the point of keeping it a secret? That’s what I don’t understand. Being unwilling to tell your hosts you have a gun just tells me that you know you’re doing something inappropriate.
The thing is, I wouldn’t be that bothered if you told me you were carrying. My wife might ask you to leave it in he car. I wold probably be ok with you bringing it in the house as long as you weren’t drinking or anything, and as long as I knew it was well out of the reach of my children.
Sneaking it in without telling me, though…that’s just sneaky, and subtly contemptuous, and I would consider it a breech of trust.
You don’t have any presumptive right to bring a gun into someone else’s house.
You do not have any presumptive legal right to bring a gun into someone else’s house without their knowledge.
But the legality of it is a bogus issue anyway. The question is whether it’s ethical. It’s not illegal for me to bone my host’s wife (if she’s willing). That doesn’t mean it would be polite.
Slavery was legal once too. Does that mean it wasn’t unethical?
Incorrect. Under the laws of my State, unless it has been stated by the property owner to me or the property is posted with signage according to the guidelines set up by the State Attorney General’s office, the law says I, as a lawful licensee under the act, may legally carry my gun into someone else’s house.
I expect your next post to link to the Kansas Statute which says that, with respect to CCW holders.
Well your state is fucked up then. It’s still an ethically repugnant thing to do.
Sure, if the homeowner actually had the slightest inkling that you were intending to exercise this particular right during the visit. The problem is that the homeowner is not offered the opportunity to weigh in on whether or not he objects, since concealed carry is Top Secret information that must never be shared with anyone.
In response to your next post. Is it really so unreasonable that a homeowner can maintain a weapon free household without having to pat down every visitor like a complete lunatic?
MN is the same way. You either need to post a sign by the entrance of your house, or inform guests as they enter that they may not CCW.
Despite your objects, carrying a firearm is by default both legal AND ethical. If you have concerns, it is YOUR responsibility to make it known, because you are in the minority.
Yes, it really is that unreasonable and radical a position.
For all the pissing and moaning about the right to carry a concealed handgun— in another individuals home, no less— the “Yippeee! I’m carrying a GUN! Legally!” crowd just don’t seem to be able to grasp the idea that most people don’t walk around through life with a pistol in their purse, pocket, boot or in a sneaky holster. I know literally dozens of people who own a gun, or multiple guns, but I don’t know a single person who has a concealed carry permit. Not one. It’s generally assumed that the majority of normal people, Average Joes & Janes on the street, are notcarrying a gun.
The largest party we’ve ever hosted in our home had about 30-35-odd people in attendence. I’m almost certain not one of them had a concealed handgun. I suppose it’s possible; but we don’t really have many, or any, friends, family, or casual aquaintances who are so insecure or terrified of life that they need to carry a gun on their person to feel ‘safe’.
Is this one, or two strawmen?
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Holy shit, is this for real? The homeowner has every possible opportunity to weigh in that they object. All they have to do is state that they object, or post a sign. It doesn’t have to be a big deal. It doesn’t need to be a Federal case. They don’t even need to say why. All that they have to do is once - only once, since that’s all the law requires - say “hey, um, my house is like a gun-free zone.” To which the CCW holder should say “cool, thanks for the heads-up.”
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It’s not “Top Secret information”, as has been posted in here. The law (in most jurisdictions) states that a person who objects can prohibit from their private property.
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Who the fuck said anything about “pat(ing) down?”
I’m losing my patience.
Why on earth would a homeowner have to post a sign or make a point of asking their dinner guests if they’re packing? The burden of resposibility is on the gun-totin’ guest, not the homeowner.
You might want to check the other 48/50 States which allow CCW in some form, including your very own. I’ll wager that in at least 44/48 of them there is no requirement to proactively inform.
On edit, looks like your State is “fucked up” as well. Imagine that. I don’t expect to ever see you admit to such, however.
Part of it is that you’re bucking a a really old custom in Western European society; a custom even older than handguns, and that is that it’s a violation of hospitality to go armed into a man’s house, especially to go armed with hidden weapons. The underlying assumption, I think, is that going armed in someone’s presence like that suggests either that you want to do him harm or that you don’t trust him not to do you harm, and are carrying for defense against him. And that was the custom when carrying weapons was more common than it is now, which suggests that the attitude being expressed in this thread is more than just an “anti-gun” attitude. So, honestly, your position is pretty radical.
You can scream that it’s ethical all you want, but it ain’t. You sneak a gun into my hous, and you’re committing a breech of trust and friendship.
This whole debate is really about opinion, of course, as all ethical discussions are, but I don’t see how anybody can really think it’s an appropriate thing to do. It’s sneaky, it’s duplicitous, it’s contemptuous of the host. If you guys can’t see that, then no amount of argument is going to convince you. Just don’t be surprised if you ever find yourself losing a friendship over it.