My state is fucked up too.
The point that’s going right over your head, though, is that the legality is irrelevant to the question of whether it’s ethical. Why do you have such little respect for other people’s homes and hospitality?
No. If there is a legal activity that you don’t wish a visitor to engage in, it is the homeowners responsibility to inform the visitor. How else are we supposed to know not to pet the dog, take our shoes off at the door, don’t use the bathroom sink cause it leaks, don’t talk to loud because you might wake the baby, etc.
You seriously expect a homeowner to ask EVERY SINGLE VISITOR to their house whether or not they’re carrying a gun, or post some ridiculous sign on their front porch.
The problem is that nobody knows that you’re doing something “objectionable”, because you are choosing to carry your weapon in a way that is non-obvious, and you choose to not tell anyone.
What’s in conflict is that you’re totally cool with a homeowner choosing to say No to your gun, but you do not offer them the opportunity to know you have one, you choose to keep it a secret from them.
What does carrying a gun have to do with any of those? If you ask someone politely to leave their gun at the door, and they do, isn’t that the very definition of respect AND hospitality?
Getting pissed at someone because they did something you didn’t like, even though you never bothered to inform them of that seems very inhospitable to me.
There are probably 100 different “legal” things I don’t want visitors doing, from eating the potpourri to banging their girlfriend on the dining room table, should I just print out a list and have all my visitors sign it?
What? Am I going to wand over every guest who comes into my house? It’s everyone’s responsibility to not act like an asshole and that’s what you are being when you bring a conceiled firearm into someone’s home without telling them.
It’s not a legal or ethical issue. It’s an issue of courtesy. Do you feel threatened somehow by being in my house? Are you expecting a home invasion or something during your visit?
While it may be legal, I am under no obligation to allow you to bring your weapon into my house. I don’t need a valid reason and I don’t even have to enforce my rules evenly.
It’s debatable whether American culture is equivalent to Western European culture (which is different even throughout Western Europe, I might add…)
That belies an underlying assumption that anyone with any gun intends harm, does it not?
This really seems to go back to the same arguments from time immemorial - people are so concerned over the weapon, that they can marginalize or ignore the entire history and presumption of innocence of the person with it.
Exactly! Finally, someone gets it! You don’t have any obligation to allow them to! You don’t need a valid reason! You don’t even have to enforce it evenly! You just have to inform them of your desires, so that they may comply!
If you inform them first, you will have the full power of the local authorities backing your decision to keep them off your property.
And just out of curiousity, how do you feel about pocket knives, hip flasks, cigarettes, and keychains with naked ladies on them? Should we require visitors to inform that they are carrying these as well, because some small minority of people find them objectionable?
How am I breaking the law by carrying a pistol into a business that is not posted?
No one here has said that they would openly defy someone’s wishes if they’re known.
This reveals far more of your world view than the motivations of anyone who carries. The presumption that anyone who wishes to legally carry concealed is a “brooding psychopath” is utterly unsubstantiated. Crime committed by CCW holders is at a rate far below the average citizen, and even below police officers.
As to why someone would carry to someone else’s house - when I carry, from the moment I left my house to the moment I returned the gun remains in its holster. I don’t handle it. If I bring the gun to work, and decide to stop by my friend’s place afterwards, it would only result in unnecesary handling, potentially exposing it (someone could see me lock it away in my car and call the cops with a “OMG THAT GUY HAS A GUN!” call, and it being out of my control - which isn’t such a big deal, but I’d rather it be by my side rather than in my car, given the small chance that I may need it or that someone could steal it from my car (unlikely - more likely if I accidentally expose it to an opportunistic criminal when taking it off and putting it away).
The whole point of concealed carry is that no one knows. It can lead to conflict because there are people like you who make character judgements about people simply because they choose to legally carry concealed. It can lead to bad situations if someone you know knows you’re armed when they expect you to react a certain way in the case of trouble. If you don’t tell someone, it doesn’t harm them - they never know - so telling them can only lead to bad things.
To what degree do you feel people carrying concealed are required to notify other people? Is it only if they’re going to enter their home? Their business? What about someone you’re stuck next to on the bus? A friend you go to public places with regularly?
What’s the benefit here of other people knowing?
If the person carrying intends malice, then they’ll simply lie. If they don’t, then there’s almost no risk. Guns don’t randomly “go off” as they tend to say on the news, nor do they hop out of their holsters and shoot people on their own. I suspect you’ve been surrounded by people concealed carrying far more than you’d estimate, and it’s caused you no harm.
Do people not tell guests that they don’t permit smoking any more, or would that be too much of an onerous burden to homeowners? And yes, I have seen “no smoking in our house, please” signs many times. Never seen those yourself, I reckon?
This is in opposition to the facts in most cases. CCW licenses exist because of the problems associated with open carry. The “non-obvious” part is often mandated by law. You can make a valid argument about the “choosing to carry” in the first place, but not so the “non-obvious” choice.
The next person who misrepresents what I posted will be visiting the United States of Plonk on a permanent vacation.
Read very carefully.
THE HOMEOWNER HAS EVERY POSSIBLE OPPORTUNITY TO KNOW BY SIMPLY ASKING. THEY ARE OFFERED THE OPPORTUNITY TO ASK, AT ANY TIME, AND THEY MAY OBJECT AT ANY TIME. THEY NEED NOT GIVE A REASON - THE LAW ABSOLUTELY PROTECTS THE RIGHT OF THE HOMEOWNER TO OBJECT. AND THEY ONLY NEED DO SO ONCE. I HAVE NOT EVER POSTED OR ADVOCATED LYING OR BEING DECEPTIVE ABOUT CARRYING UPON BEING ASKED. IT IS ONLY BEING “KEPT A SECRET” IN THAT I DON’T PROACTIVELY TELL THEM.
You know what is being deceptive? Being so bothered by guns that you would deny a lawful, legal CCW holder to enter your home, but choosing to hide that fact from them. Why would one hide such a thing? Seems almost, well, unethical to me…see how it works, when that shoe is on the other foot?
I think part of the disagreement here comes from an incorrect perception of the non-carrying people in this thread. Generally, carrying a gun to someone else’s house is not a deliberate or aggressive act. They don’t think “hey, I’m going to [whoever’s] house, I better grab a gun”. Rather, their default state is to carry. They’d have to have a specific reason not to carry to a place. If that person has notified them of their wishes to be gun free, then that would be a specific reason not to carry there. Otherwise, you’d carry there like you’d carry anywhere else that was legal. You wouldn’t necesarily be thinking about it - if you carry regularly then strapping on a gun isn’t much different than putting on a wristwatch.
In my CCW training, I was told to tell no one that I was licensed and/or was carrying - that it could only lead to problems and had no upside.
In my CCW training courses, the instructor told us words to the effect of “the Attorney General of the State wants you to know that it is inadvisable for you to advertise or tell people that you are carrying concealed under this Act unless they have a legal right to know, such as any law enforcement officer who specifically asks.”
I think the underlying assumption is that people don’t carry weapons unless they anticipate the need to use them. A gun, or a sword, or whatever, is a tool, after all. So if you’re bringing a weapon into somebody’s home, assuming you don’t intend them harm, of course, you’re saying you don’t trust them, because if you trusted them, you wouldn’t need to be armed.
And what if you simply carry everywhere? What if you don’t make a habit of removing your gun in public and locking it away in your car?
Really, concealed carry doesn’t mean you’re walking around in a state of “OH MY GOD I CAN BE ATTACKED AT ANY MOMENT, I BETTER CLING TO THIS GUN” - you simply learn to carry it as naturally as you would a wristwatch. You put it on when you leave the house, and take it off when you go home. People that don’t carry seem to make a way bigger deal out of it than the people who actually do.
OK, I see your point. Would I carry specifically to go to someone’s home - a friend, or someone I had no reason to distrust? No, I personally wouldn’t. But what I’m trying to illustrate is that IRL there are complications. If I carry to go to the mall, the bank, because I’m going to be at work late at night (and we have no security guards any more…), and then I choose after those things to go to a friends house, I’m not carrying because of them - I just am carrying because I was earlier. Or perhaps I’m stopping by their house on the way to do something downtown, or to go out on a hike on the park trails, or anything else.
I do not want to leave a deadly, loaded weapon alone in a car, and in addition to that in my courses we were instructed to if at all possible minimize the incidents of handling the weapon, regardless of where we are. If I’m riding a bike and stop by I have no place to leave the weapon at all. What I’m saying is that there are practicalities involved that are completely innocent.
In Wisconsin it is. Albe
So I’m going to repeat a question I asked before: Is it ethical for a property owner to conceal a weapon on their person without informing their guests? If someone drops in do I have to immediately tell them I have my off duty on me?
Business, buses and other public places are public, and the State decides what we can and can’t do in public. Homeowners decide what people can and can’t do in their home.
CCW holders requested from the state permission to carry a concealed weapon in public (by applying for a permit), yet they do not request similar permission from homeowners to carry a weapon in their home.
Una, people do tell guests that they don’t allow smoking, but it’s almost universally in response to “Do you mind if I smoke?” or mentioned to someone who is already known to be a smoker. People really mention no smoking to every visitor even if they have no idea of they’re smokers?
IMO, yes. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. However, why would you listen to a glowering, brooding psychopath?
Your first sentence is true. My analogy is not the best, I admit. Although I have many times seen the signs on the doors/side windows.