Forget the religion stuff, I want to know what the FBI wanted! (Of course, it could be as harmless as security clearance. But inquiring minds and all that.)
ZPG, I am the equal of men. I don’t get or want special rules to denigrate OR elevate me.
Talk about burying the fucking lead.
If it had been for a security clearance, they would have said so. And those tasks are usually contracted out, in my experience.
Wait! Don’t women want to be put on top of a pedestal? I seem to recall something about that. 
That…is really weird. And I can tell you I have never been in that situation, as far as I know. I wonder why the FBI was asking about them?
But that is a toally bizarre occurence and not one that occurs every day. I hope. And I never said I was necessarily subject to harassment about my religion. My current coworkers know I am atheist. But that was my choice to tell them, and it came out when I felt like I wanted to tell them.
Really, in all of that conversation, what does it matter if they are Sunni or Shi’ite Muslims? There is still no need for you to know!
The FBI asking about them is really irrelevant. The point I was curious about, after talking with my colleagues, was: is it really true that Shi’ite Muslims generally wear the full face veils and the Sunni Muslims don’t? And if you see someone with a full face veil, is it true that they are probably Shi’ite?
And I think that if you are in conversation with someone wearing a full-face veil, I would assume that they are Muslim, and I would not think it’s wrong asking them that question. I’m not going to run up to a random person in a street and ask them, but if they’re coming to the house to bring me to a cake, then yeah, I’ll ask them. “By the way, I was wondering about this…”
In a perfect world, when the new neighbour comes over to bring you a cake, you won’t talk about anything. You won’t ask if the two young men living with her are her sons: people without kids don’t want you to assume that they have or want kids. You won’t ask her if she’s married: none of your business. You won’t ask her where she’s from or how long she’s lived her: that would be implying that she is a foreigner, and less worthy than us true Americans. You can’t ask what she does for a living - work conversations should be kept at work.
The polite thing is too mention the weather, how hot it’s been lately and the crops could sure use some rain, thank her for the cake, then sit there in silence for 20 minutes before kicking her to the curb.
Most of the time, I feel that all discussion of people’s religions are inappropriate in the workplace or at work-sponsored events–not just asking someone what their religion is. There are, however, exceptions.
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If you are advertising your religion by wearing religious symbols, displaying religious tattoos, or putting a “Cthulhu Saves” bumper sticker on your car (;)), then you have pretty much issued a printed invitation to ask you about your religion.
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If you ask or expect any kind of special treatment because of your religion, then it’s appropriate for the designated person in your workplace to ask for details.
I’ve actually done this at work in the past, although I’ve always done it in such a way that I’m asking a group rather than an individual. Most of the time I’ve needed information about whether an ad would be offensive to our Hindu customers, or whether it’s appropriate to suggest a Saturday meeting with a Jewish client, or whether anyone can give me advice on an upcoming meeting with some Muslim businesspeople so I don’t behave inappropriately.
My older and wiser self would probably ask for advice without asking, “Hey, any of you guys Jewish?,” but I was younger and less thoughtful back then. And still, if I want advice about dealing with Hindus, I’m most comfortable getting that advice from a Hindu.
If the FBI is snooping around, then it’s DEFINITELY better for your friend to stay out. And even if it wasn’t, what different would it make WHICH branch of Islam? If you’re that curious about whether it’s Sunni or Shi’ite that wears a certain type of clothing – look it up. The poor neighbors probably have enough to deal with right now.
Amiss or bizarre, take your pick. “Cultural” is either a code word for “something that makes me think you are different in a way I feel compelled to investigate” or else it is meaningless. It’s meaningless in the sense that ALL clothing is cultural.
Right now I’m wearing linen pants from British India, a t-shirt from Chico, and ballet crocs. That’s just as “cultural” as a salwar kameez, merely more commonly seen in my surroundings.
[QUOTE=Arnold]
In a perfect world, when the new neighbour comes over to bring you a cake, you won’t talk about anything. You won’t ask if the two young men living with her are her sons: people without kids don’t want you to assume that they have or want kids. You won’t ask her if she’s married: none of your business. You won’t ask her where she’s from or how long she’s lived her: that would be implying that she is a foreigner, and less worthy than us true Americans. You can’t ask what she does for a living - work conversations should be kept at work.
The polite thing is too mention the weather, how hot it’s been lately and the crops could sure use some rain, thank her for the cake, then sit there in silence for 20 minutes before kicking her to the curb.
[/QUOTE]
In a perfect world, religion would be a perfectly acceptable topic, since no-one would have to worry about being yelled at/harped on/shunned because of their religion.
WIKIPEDIA
[quote=]
In a perfect world, when the new neighbour comes over to bring you a cake, you won’t talk about anything. You won’t ask if the two young men living with her are her sons: people without kids don’t want you to assume that they have or want kids. You won’t ask her if she’s married: none of your business. You won’t ask her where she’s from or how long she’s lived her: that would be implying that she is a foreigner, and less worthy than us true Americans. You can’t ask what she does for a living - work conversations should be kept at work.
The polite thing is too mention the weather, how hot it’s been lately and the crops could sure use some rain, thank her for the cake, then sit there in silence for 20 minutes before kicking her to the curb.
[/quote]
You know you are being silly and facetious. Certainly I don’t talk about the weather and sit in stony silence. I find common interests and talk about them. I don’t put people on the spot by saying “You wear a full face veil, what does that make you? Huh? Huh?” I find out maybe that she likes to bake, and maybe we swap some recipes and get to talking about baking. Or maybe I ask her “What do you like to do?” And she says “I love to watch courtroom dramas” and I listen a bit and maybe tell her about the kind of TV I watch.
If she wants to share the intricacies of her religion, so be it. But it’s annoying always being singled out as “different”. Why don’t you trust us on this? We’ve had it happen a thousand times and it’s gotten rather old.
You’re apparently using hyperbole in order to imply that some of us are taking unreasonable positions.
Let me put it to you this way: There’s a very good reason why “weather” has become a stereotypical subject of casual conversation. Obviously, people don’t chat about the weather and then sit silently. But they choose other topics that invite the other person to participate in the conversation and also rely on the other person to do the same.
Unless you have an extremely narrow view of what constitutes conversation between relative strangers, then there’s no reason to believe that asking direct, personal questions is the only way to advance a conversation or to get to know someone.
There are reasons why certain topics are considered too personal for certain levels of acquaintanceship. No, you don’t ask a complete stranger whether she’s married or has children. Because those questions can imply or implicate very personal issues or decisions. If someone is married or has children and wishes to talk about it, he or she will naturally bring it up on his or her own. I mean, really, you act as if no person has ever engaged in getting-acquainted conversation before.
Conversation is not interrogation – “Are you married?” “No, do you have a boyfriend?” “No, are you having sex with anyone at all?” “Do you have children?” “Yes, but you said you weren’t married.” “But how old are you? You don’t look that young. Don’t you want to have children?” “What’s your religion?” “Where are you from?” “What does your name mean?” “What are your hobbies?” “What’s your job?”
Topics like these come up, slowly, organically, as a relationship develops. It’s very presumptuous to behave as if you have a right to inquire into all these topics all at once.
And this has happened to me. Now I am fully confident enough to do the Miss Manners thing “Why do you ask?” and shut them down but it is still annoying to do the 20 questions. People can be so nosy, and the more you ask me questions like this the more I shut down and retreat. I am a very private person and thus understand other private people…we like to be drawn out of our shells slowly, or better yet, come out on their own.
I thought the stereotypical subject of casual conversation was traffic.
Too many farmers around here for weather to be a “casual” conversation.
Me (to random person in bar): Sure have gotten a lot of rain this week.
Random person in bar: About time. Streamflow is down 27% over last year and total rainfall in this watershed is down 9%, even considering the 2.1" we’ve gotten in the last 7 days. Snowfall in the mountains has been trending down for the last 8 years, but if we get the el nina we’re expecting, we should get a good snowpack with a slow, steady melt in the spring.
Me: Erm. How about them Broncos?
I wouldn’t personally be offended if someone asked, but I would be pretty surprised. I think it’s totally OK to ask in the appropriate context. And the context isn’t all that rare, I should say – anywhere I’ve worked for long enough, I eventually had some idea of the religious beliefs of the co-workers I interacted with most often.
Of course, I hope no one does ask me, because they’d be stuck there for awhile while I explained, “Well, I believe in God, but the only thing I’m really sure about is that some entity got the ball rolling, so to speak, and I go back and forth on whether this entity plays an active role in our lives or even really cares about our affairs at all. And I respect the teachings of Jesus deeply – enough that I feel the occasional urge to go to a Christian church service – but I’m pretty skeptical about that whole “Son of God” thing. Oh, and I was baptized Catholic so I like my services to have some pomp and circumstance, but really I’m pretty comfortable with almost anything…” and so on and so on.
You mean not be her friend? When the neighbour comes over with a cake, hide in the back and pretend you’re not home? Or something else?
It doesn’t make any difference in my life, in the same way that knowing that they have huge land tortoises in the Galapagos islands makes a difference in my life. I just like knowing things. And I don’t know if those poor people have suffered at all. The FBI could be doing a background check for a job with a security clearance.
I totaly agree with this.
I suppose that as message board devotees we are supposed to eschew human contact and rely on the internet for knowledge, but you know, sometimes I learn more by asking someone who is actually living the lifestyle than by checking Wikipedia.
Yes, I was being facetious. But it just so happens that one of my common interests was, which various types of Muslims wear a veil. Why should it be offensive to ask? I could talk about baking, but what if she’s a baker, and everyone always asks her about baking, and she’s sick of it? What if she never watches TV because of religious reasons, and she thinks TV is crap, and is tired of people talking about TV? If I ask her some question about Islam, and she doesn’t want to answer, she can just say “I don’t like talking about that.”
Who is this us? When I moved to this country at age 20, I spoke with a strong accent. People were always asking “where are you from?” Oh, Switzerland, eh? Do you ski? What languages do they speak there? Such a pretty country, so clean. etc. It never bothered me. I was glad to talk about Switzerland. Much better than talking about football or TV.
there’s a difference between firing off a series of interview questions in short order, immediately moving on to another personal question as soon as the first one is answered, and asking a question about the person and letting the conversation develop from there.