Is it legal for postal carrier to sit in middle of car, and other postal problems.

Factual Questions
1

My postal carrier sits in the middle to middle-right hand side of her car when she is delivering mail. She steers with her left hand on the right side of the steering wheel. Is this legal (in Michigan)? She doesn’t wear a seat belt, which is legal, but not being seated behind the wheel doesn’t seem safe to any pedestrians or neighborhood children.

Since she sits in the middle, and is kind of short, she can’t reach the mailboxes very well, and has left a rut in front of the group of four mailboxes. She has also knocked the door off of my neighbor’s box (my wife watched this happen).

I’ve seen her deliver mail in a proper mail truck, and she had no problem reaching the mailboxes while staying in the street.

I wrote them, telling them I didn’t think this was safe, mentioning that I had a large rut, that she had knocked a door off my neighbor’s mailbox, and pointing out that when she drives a truck, she can reach the mailboxes without driving on the lawn. I asked them to provide her with the proper equipment to safely do her job.

They responded that she is driving as trained, and blamed the broken mailbox door on neighborhood kids. They said rural carriers have to use their own vehicles.

They also wrote “Under further investigation, your carrier has reported that she has talked to you about problems with your box location”. (She didn’t, but maybe she talked to one of my neighbors.) Also, “I have instructed her to begin holding your mail until such time that this hazard can be corrected.” These mailboxes have been there at least 4 1/2 years, probably 7 years. Our group isn’t the only one with a rut in front of it. The only regulations I can find just say “a curbside mailbox must be placed to allow safe and convenient delivery by carriers without leaving their vehicles”, which she can do, and has done in the past.

What can I do? Is there some higher up I could speak with (the response was from the manager of XXXXX road station).

About the rut, they wrote “The utilities and the government use the Eminent Domain claus in the law that states that 10 feet from the street is your responsibility for its upkeep”. But they are the ones who drove on my lawn. This isn’t really a big deal, but it bugs me.

Lastly, if I put up my own mailbox next to my driveway, separate from the group of four it’s with now, will they have to deliver to it, or can they force me to keep it with the others? (It would still be on the same side of the street.) I could do this myself this weekend faster than the group of four could be replaced, and I’d kind of like to have my mailbox right next to my driveway, anyway.

2

I’m not sure who you spoke to, but you could write a letter, or go to the PO and speak to the Post Master. Also, maybe you could go up to her, when you see her and tell her you think it would make a lot more sense (maybe, depending on other conditions) if she just drove down that part of the road “on the wrong side.” If she drives on the left side of the road, the mail boxes will be at the driver side window, not the passenger. Also you could take the reply letter you got, and take it to the post master, and mention that you witnessed her knocking the door off, you could even demand that they replace it for you (or your neighbor rather).

3

That sounds odd. All the mail trucks around here have the pedals and steering wheel on the right side of the vehicle to avoid this particular problem.

4

The OP is talking about something I see a lot around here… a car driving down the road with nobody behind the wheel. Just a passenger.

It takes a moment of watching to realize what’s going on in these cases… the ‘passenger’ is driving from the wrong seat.

They make the postal carriers use their own cars to save money. That’s right, it’s about money. It’s more important to keep that stamp a few cents cheaper than to provide them with trucks to drive.

I have no idea why this is not illegal. It should be… I’ve done it myself, and it’s DANGEROUS. In my younger days, of course. I even drove right past a police officer, in his car, who had every chance to stop me. I guess either it’s NOT illegal, or he thought I was a postal worker.

5

I’ve subbed both rural mail and newspapers. It’s amazing how easy it is to adapt to driving from the right hand seat. Federal and state laws require drivers to go with instead of against the flow of traffic.

Rural routes are put out for the lowest bid and few can afford to purchase the equipment necessary to change the controls over to the right side. Some carriers buy imports with the stuff in the right place.

Be kind to your delivery person. If they want you to raise or lower your box or make some other improvement, just do it. Make their life as easy as you can.

That reminds me, It’s probably time to bake up a batch of double chocolate cookies for our carrier. Ya gotta be careful anymore you know with the Patriot Act and all. Your carrier probably knows more about you than your husband/wife does. I want them on my side.

6

I addressed the letter to “Postmaster” at my zip code.

They said it was too far from the curb per postal regulations, but didn’t say which regulations, or how far it should be. Also, our mailboxes have been in the same place for probably seven years, but no one ever drove on our lawn until this winter.

While I’m here, how does the USPS determine when a route is a rural route or some other route? I live in the city of Ann Arbor, in a residential neighborhood. Rural route may have been appropriate in the past, but what would it take to switch us into a city route? (I’ve had other problems in the past associated with being a rural route).

7

I could be totally wrong here but I think a rural route requires curb side mailboxes and the postman delivers by truck (or car). As opposed to an area where the postman walks and delivers the mail to the mailbox or slot.

8

ZenBeam, you can’t fight the USPS. The regulations are myriad, they’re confusing, and they often make no sense. But as mentioned above, the car thing boils down to a question of the USPS saving money by putting the burden on the carrier.

The carrier doesn’t want to destroy her car on any of the obstacles on her route. The postmaster doesn’t want there to be any liability trouble with you. There ARE very exact regulations about the location of the mailbox, with exact height measurements, distance from the road, etc. (Ask the P.O. for a copy of them.) You’re right, the rules about mailbox height, etc. often not enforced. But apparently they see trouble brewing and they want to make sure their asses are covered in the case the customer (you) escalates anything.

Forget about changing the route designation. They aren’t going to start some precedent that could affect the entire country because of one individual complaining.

Yes, it’s not safe to drive from the middle of the car. But that’s what they make the carriers do. There is no way they’re going to provide the carrier a government vehicle unless they have their own sweet reason for doing so.

So my advice is try to chill out, try to make them happy and everyone’s lives will be happier (including yours). If there’s actual damage to your property after you have the mailbox in the right place, etc. then you can try complaining about property damage. But forget about the driving-in-the-middle thing and changing the route designation.

If your neighbor is concerned about her mailbox door, then she is the one to complain to the P.O., not you.

9

Friedo, she’s not driving a mail truck, she’s driving her own regular car. Rural carriers on “mounted” routes do that.

Okay, I have now run this past the Better Half, 20 years a letter carrier. He sez:

10

So basically they drive from the wrong part of the car entirely, because driving on the wrong side of the road is illegal. Driving from somewhere other than the driver’s seat is not illegal. This is the gist of what I’m reading?

Seriously, how can driving from somewhere other than the driver’s seat NOT be illegal, in this day and age? You have to be able to use all the controls, you have to be wearing a seat belt in some states… they went to all the trouble to put this where the driver goes, and you’re not gonna use it? Why even have it? Don’t tell me a cell phone distracts you and driving FROM THE WRONG SEAT doesn’t!

11

Why don’t you give it a break - you started complaining and “surprise” you got a response - spend more time here on this site (or doing something productive) and less time worrying about how your mailperson does her job.

12

Thanks to everyone for your comments/commiseration/support/not-snickering-too-loudly-at-my-plight.
(on preview, except county.)

Update:

I called and talked to the Carrier Supervisor; the manager is on vacation until later this month. She was very helpful. She said our mail is not being held currently. She also looked up the rules for mailbox placement: the front of the mailbox must be 0 to 6 inches from the curb, and the height must be between 42 and 48 inches. She said the county says it must be 0 to 12 inches from the curb, but that 0 to 6 is what the post office requires (I didn’t ask her specifically where her 0 to 6 figure came from).

We have a different carrier (shorter, with a smaller car) since about last fall, so that’s why this hasn’t been a problem before. Also, apparently, they’ve been getting multiple complaints about this.

I haven’t been home to measure yet, but from memory, it looked like it was 6 to 8 inches from the curb. The thing is, she gets her car so close, her whole wheel is beyond the curb, so a couple inches won’t help. I won’t necessarily have any say where the box gets moved to: our homeowners association is responsible for maintenance of the mailboxes.

Duck Duck Goose, thanks for your better half’s response. To answer some of his questions, we have a paved street, with a curb. There’s no gravel involved, just lawn, curb and pavement. (it’s the kind of curb they don’t have to make driveway cutouts for, so she can drive up it pretty easily.) She drives her wheels completely beyond the curb, in front of the mailboxes. My wife says the carrier’s car actually gets under the mailboxes.

Oh, and yes, the lawn extension and sidewalk belong to the city as part of the right-of-way for the street, but I don’t think that means I can drive on the sidewalk.

13

They are allowed to complain and inquire as much as they want, county, as long as they do it in a relatively intelligent way, which is what I’ve seen so far. It’s “fighting ignorance…” not “fighting inqueries…”. So bugger off.

14

Here’s a picture. This isn’t my house, and I think this one is a little closer to the street than mine, but you can see how the mailboxes are set up.

15

a) You’re right. But b) to avoid fights, how’s about you let the mods be the only ones here to tell people to “bugger off?”

Thanks.

16

Zenbeam, I’d show your picture to the Better Half but it wants a password. And then it gave me a huge “ACCESS DENIED!! SO THERE!!” screen…

17

a lot of our rural postal carriers drive cars with the steering wheel, accelerator, brake, (etc.) on the right side of the car. I’m sure that helps them a lot…
just putting that out there.
::wanders off aimlessly::

18

I had the same problem accessing the site, Duck. But then I tried again & just pressed “OK” without entering any info, and the website with the picture came up.

So just give it another try…

19

Ah, okay.

Okay, ZB, I see what you’re saying, I think. She drives up onto the “berm” (that’s the part between the sidewalk and the street) next to the sidewalk leading down to the street, just a little bit in order to make sure she’s right up against the mailboxes, and leaves the ruts in between the mailbox post and the sidewalk leading down to the street.

Well, I don’t even have to show it to the Better Half to know you’re S.O.L. there, sorry. She has the right to maneuver her vehicle around so that she can get at the mailboxes, and if she’s such a sloppy driver that this entails driving up onto the berm a bit, well, there’s not a lot you can do except talk to the Carrier Supervisor and register your displeasure with him, and by extension, with the carrier.

And remember, she’s human, too, and “you catch more flies with honey”. She may just never have realized that some people found it irritating to have ruts in the berm. Maybe just meet her out there some afternoon with a friendly smile (and keep your hands in view at all times so she knows you’re not armed–I’m not kidding here) and explain it to her politely.

You could also point out, “Look, you know, that’s sod there, too, and it’s expensive…” Might get her sympathy a bit more.

Even if it isn’t sod–lie. :wink:

20

I can’t answer much of the OP’s questions but there’s a lot of info being thrown out that i think should be addressed. I was city letter carrier for about 7 years so can answer some of statements made here…and others i just can toss out a WAG.

That’s not quite true. They do not MAKE the carrier deliver with their own vehicle. I’m pretty sure almost all rural routes are so called “contract routes”. The post office has an area that is out of the city boundries but needs to be delivered to. So the post office asks for bids for the route…the lowest bid to deliver that route gets it. It’s now up to that person to do his job safely…though the u.s.p.s should be checking up on him. If he chooses to do it in his personal vehicle instead of purchasing an old mail jeep (not sure how many of these still around and running) that is up to him.

Is a good idea with someone that brings in so much of your stuff that is important. Not saying that you need to be a suck up but that having a friendly relationship with your carrier can really help. Much easier to get them to do something out of the ordinairy that way. I would usually go out of my way to make sure that a special parcel or letter got to someone i knew and liked on the route even if it meant i had to make an extra effort.

You are wrong :slight_smile: , hehe, sorry. Rural routes are generally outside of the city limits and are almost always driven…usually either a bank of boxes as the OP has or MBU’s (multiple box units, the big silver metal things with 4-20 addresses in them). A city route is basically just inside city limits…can be walking, dismount (which is almost curbside boxes but the driver has to hope out real quick to actually reach the box), curbside (just pull up and throw the mail in from inside the vehicle), and any combination of the above. Oh, and when i speak inside or out of city limits…that’s just in general. There are exceptions to any rule.

Yes, i agree…I loathe the p.o.'s rules. And whats even more irritating is when they have all these stupid rules and apply them arbitrarily. You have a point about the p.o. saving cash on the car thing…but is also up to the carrier that successfully bid that route.

That’s not quite true. I did deliver a route that a few years before i started was rural but now was considered city. But it seems to be a damn slow process and someone has to really complain to get the ball rolling…and there has to be enough deliveries either to make a real city route (8 hr route) or not to many so it can be added to another route easily.

Yep, exactly. LLV’s do suck, they are much roomier than the old jeeps to hold more mail, much easier to deliver mail out of, and get better gas mileage (v6 vs. v4 i think). But, why oh why, didn’t they make those things front wheel drive? On anything but dry pavement the handling is horrific. And yes, rural carriers get reimbursed for their mileage.

God yes, it’s just annoying and we are supposed to smile and laugh…grr. Usually when someone asked me if i was going to postal i would say, “You’ll be the first to know.” :slight_smile:

Yep, it’s a big deal with the post officer to know exactly how long a route is supposed to be. All routes have been evaluated and the office keeps track of how long you take each day. It’s not a big deal to take to long every once in a while but make a habit of it and the supervisor will be talking to you. And it’s not even if they notice…there is a new program (well, new as in last couple years) that automatically makes a report that shows how much mail that route had, how long it took to deliver that mail, how long it SHOULD have taken to deliver that amount of mail volume, and the normal mail volume and delivery time. It isn’t measured in seconds…but they do measure it in minutes. Plus, anything out of the ordinary is supposed to be in that routes evaluation…have to go inside for an elderly customer? Has to be in that route book.

Yeah, that’s best. You wouldn’t believe what a pita it is to deliver mail in a normal vehicle. Every once in a rare while we would have to do it (either llvs broke down or just huge amounts of mail such as christmas). I think there are some still functional mail jeeps running around. Though i think they are slowly being cannabalized to get other of those jeeps running.

Good advice, actually you probably should have talked to the carrier before speaking to her supervisor or writing a letter. Though that can be inconvenient if you are at work during the day. If you talk to the carrier first you may resolve the problem and be done with it…but you still have the option of speaking to her supervisor. I never had a problem thinking someone was actually armed…but i delivered mail in a semi-small town.

Ok, if you read this far…thanks, i realise it was a darn long post. All of this is, of course, my own opinion and may not be completely accurate as what i know about rural routes is from talking to my carrrier supervisor (which supervised both city and rural routes) and speaking to the rural carriers occasionally.