What about anything I said indicates that there’s something inherently wrong with prostitution? I fully agree that people should be able to sell sex. But I also agree that people should be able to enter into indentured servitude and that people should be able to practice Communism. The morality of things isn’t the issue, it’s the real world results.
I personally can’t convince myself that the right to sell sex is such a necessity to mankind that doubling the number of sex workers being raped every year is worth it. People can live with wacking off into a tissue and watching porn. The benefit gained by having legal prostitutes is largely non-existant to anyone who’s not actually interested in sexuality as a lifetime profession, which is really a tiny number of people.
Me: I can’t find any decent information on NZ.
You: Well then provide evidence that it’s bad in NZ.
How exactly does A lead to B in any logical sense?
Yes, because since prostitution was legalised in New Zealand the number of sex workers being raped every year has doubled…oh hold on, no it hasn’t. Feel free to show me the sudden spike in rape of sex workers since the legistlation change.
We are talking about a commercial transaction here. People go to prostitutes for all different reasons. Some go for the sex. Some go for the companionship. Some go because they are horrible people and it gives them a chance to be horrible. Some go because they need that contact, and they lack the social skills to get that contact in any other way. What right do you have to say that Joe Bloggs should just “whack off into a tissue and watch porn?”
As for the motivations for getting and staying in prostitution:
80% of respondents valued sex work for the hours. 25% don’t want to get any other work. 39% stay in sex work because they enjoy the sex. I don’t vouch for the veracity for the statistics but in the circles I move in they seem pretty accurate.
Prostitution happens. Even in places that it is illegal. What benifits are there to society to keep the industry underground?
I was watching an episode of Cops the other day and watched as a streetworker was arrested and put in jail for “loitering with intent.” Seriously: what the hell is up with that?
You:
“Prostitutes live awful lives.”
“They are raped and beaten and strung out and even murdered.”
“The majority of them suffer from PTSD and I suspect that there are probably issues with sex addiction as well.”
“Most prostitutes remain as illegal workers”
“The problem is that most prostitutes are underage, drug addicts, runaways, or otherwise being used as the property of an abusive slimeball.”
“most of the customership of prostitutes is more than happy to make the jump to illegal workers.”
“Supposedly, legalizing prostitution would solve this, but in practice it doesn’t.”
Me
That doesn’t match up with my experience and what happens in NZ. Any proof?
You
Nope. But I will repeat all of my assertions restated in different ways!
I would not be stunned with amazement if there are married women who either do not enjoy sex themselves or use sex as an instrument to get their own way with their husbands who might be against legalising prostitution.
If the husband can pop into town and relieve himself without any drama then the wife no longer has an instrument of control.
Personally I’m all for legalisation for purely pragmatic reasons.
It would be much more difficult for unwilling women to be forced into prostitution.
Their income could be taxed.
STDs could be controlled.
Rapes would go down.
Ordinary women would not be pestered by kerb crawlers who have mistaken them for working girls.
Pimps would be eliminated.
Sexual harassment by frustrated men would most probably drop significantly.
Crimes against the prostitutes(Sex murders,beatings and robberies)would be eliminated.
Marriages could be saved where the wife doesn’t enjoy sex,instead of the husband seeking relief in an affair that becomes emotional,leading to a break up he gets his rocks off as a purely commercial venture and stays with his wife.
Men who have psychological problems caused by enforced abstinance due to unattractiveness or shyness would be helped.
Crimes against customers would not be possible.
I do not use prostitutes myself(Well I would say that wouldn’t I) as I for one couldn’t afford them,and two wouldn’t fancy catching an S.T.D. and also thinking about it the idea doesn’t turn me onbut that said I have no moral objection against it and don’t look down on those who do partake.
It really has nothing to do with the OP in any case. I don’t think it’s been demonstrated that ‘religious bigotry’ is what keeps prostitution illegal…it’s kept illegal simply because it’s fairly unpopular in most western nations.
For MY part (as a libertarian type), I’m all for making it legal. But…ain’t gona happen. And that’s not simply because of the bible thumpers.
With a deal like that, what man would even try to please his wife? He can just pay someone to pretend she enjoys it – much less work! The minority of women who would be okay with this situation probably wouldn’t be swayed one way or another based on the law.
In theory, I am for legalization in the interest of sex workers’ safety and rights. (It would be nice if it encouraged a ‘humanizing’ of them e.g. giving a shit when they’re assaulted or murdered, but stripping’s legal and they’re still sub-human in many circles.)
But, in addition to a parallel black market and sex trafficking, I’m also worried that what I would assume would remain illegal – hiring underage prostitutes – ignores the reality of most prostitutes’ lives, not to mention johns’ tastes. Most don’t turn 18 and decide they’d like to make some extra money, they follow the classic childhood molestation/trauma → runaway → drug addict → prostitution path. And there’s no lack of men looking specifically for underage girls (and they don’t all seek them abroad).
Cat Fight In the Massage Therapy industry professional associations, schools and the like aggressively pursue unlicensed rub and tug places. Why would prostitution be any different? You have a legal way to stifle the competition. So legal prostitutes would be the greatest advocates for getting the illegals out of the game.
I’m not quite sure what you mean (or it’s a joke and I’m dense) – you think spas or clinics employing actual, qualified massage therapists are competing for clients with handjob parlors?
Australia has had legalised prostitution for a lot longer, since 1979 in New South Wales.
What negative consequences has this had? Brothels are inspected for cleanliness and condom usage. They pay tax. They even have a union: http://www.scarletalliance.org.au/
Please provide cites for how this has damaged or harmed Australian society in any way.
"What about opposition to prostitution on religious grounds? Is that a form of bigotry? "
I think it’s not religion associated much anymore, although I’m sure that’s where it started. By now it’s just a long ingrained prudishness about sex.
As unfunny as I believe the comedian Gallagher to be, he did say this about prostitution; “Why is it illegal to sell what it’s perfectly legal to give away for free?”
Well, if it was merely religous bigotry then you’d see a pretty clear line of demarcation between notions of different religions. But you don’t.
Here’s a list of nations with legalized and regulated Prostituion:
Note that all of them are “Christian” nations, with the execption of Senegal and Turkey.
There are no Hindu nations, only two Moslem nations, no Buddist nations, etc.
We also have the USA on that list, with Nevada.
If it was on religous lines we’d expect to see nearly all the nations of one (or more) mega-faith having legalized it, while others would have criminalized it.
So, the Op is thus proved wrong. As had been said before, it’s more a case of morals- as opposed to religion, *per se.
*
Why would legal prostitution have to be regulated? Why licenses? That could just encourage the parallel black market already mentioned.
I make a girl an offer, she accepts, money and sex are exchanged but wait, what if she didn’t have a license? Is it like driving, could we be caught boning without a license? Why the devil would we as a society simultaneously pursue a libertarian aim of legality in principle AND a liberal expansion of bureaucracy?
These and other logistical questions are going to plague the prostitution debate far longer than moral finger-wagging. Furthermore, morality and religion are separate constructs that can and often do operate independently.
The attempt to link prostitution and SSM is weak, nonsensical, and thoroughly disproved.
You haven’t read what I’ve written. When prostitution has been legalized in various places, on average it has expanded the number of illegal prostitutes working by double to triple. That life improves for legally operating prostitutes is irrelevant if the whole goal to begin with was to improve life for all prostitutes. Creating double or triple the number of illegally working women in the same awful conditions as before isn’t a step forward.
As I said earlier in this thread, if you look at a rich politician in Mexico under house arrest in his beach-side mansion, that really doesn’t tell you anything about the quality of prisons in Mexico. You have to look at the entire image if you want to draw any conclusions.
…in New Zealand this transaction would be legal: because a licence is only required if a brothel has four or more sex workers. How would this legal transaction encourage the black market?
…so can you tell us about the “entire” image of prostitution in Australia? What conclusions can you draw?
Can you define an illegal prostitute? Can you cite the doubling or tripling of illegal prostitutes in either NZ or Australia? (I know you posted several links before to posts you have made with citations: but I am looking for the specific cite thanks)
Good for New Zealand, they’ve been an excellent exemplar for this discussion. If you legalize prostitution under some sort of license system there will still be those people that find the strictures of licensing untenable and the result could be an expansion of illegal prostitution as described by Sage Rat. Might not be either, it sounds like things are going well in New Zealand.
My point was that there are a lot of practical and logistical concerns regarding legalized prostitution.
My question was, why not just make it legal - no license, no paperwork. That’s just my knee-jerk ‘let’s keep the government small’ response. Considering commercial scale, taxes, insurance, and human health, NZ’s rule of 4 probably works out pretty well.
:o :smack: