For the love of Vishnu, you two, can you take the hijack elsewhere?
Daniel
Yes, please do. Maybe Aldebaran and Sam Stone can finally find common cause in the Why the Hell Do You Guys Care So Much Where I Live Anyway Association.
Also, I can’t say where Aldebaran posts from.
If that is suposed to be adressed to me, I think you should name the names of those who start hijacking threads with always the same nonsens “about me”.
Furst of all no-friend Mehitabel, now followed by Devoted Believer Dropzone.
In any case: whenever I see such hijacking, not-thread-related posts popping up, I shall reply, sending them to my thread about it.
If you have objections to make on that maybe you could ask the moderators to tell these harassers to stop harassing me disturbing ongoing debatesd over and over again?
Salaam. A
We are pretty much on the same page thanks to your clarification. That said, I’d still like some of the quotes you mention because the term SOCAS is a modern invention and I believe it has been hijacked to mean “not one penny of tax money can go to anything that remotely represents any sort of any religion”. And I do not believe that was the Founding Fathers intention. It was freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.
That is too bad, as I normally agree with much of what you say and have even defended you, but I will survive. :rolleyes: Perhaps if you stopped seeing offence where none was intended you’d be a happier person.
I never read any of your back and forth with Mehitabel, but thank you very much for your own conclusion jumping. My assumption was based on several other statements. As for Belgium being where your mother was from but not you, that appears to be my mistake but, in the context of my first statements in this thread, you are still at least as Belgian as I am German.
Sorry, I posted before I saw this.
I know you can’t. I saw the thread where Ed said so. 
With all due respect, this has nothing to do with George Bush or the war in Iraq. I do not support said war and would be delighted if the US left Iraq as soon as possible.
What this is about, however, is the ability to critique religion. Your semantics aside, it would be suicidal for someone to denounce Islam or even to question its intellectual merits in nearly every Moslem country. Intellectual debate, particularly any sort of religious intellectual debate is simply not allowed in most (if not all) majority Moslem countries.
Further, as dangerous as you might see the Christian Right they don’t have goon squads going from door to door enforcing “morals”. In the western world homosexuality may not be embraced but it is certainly tolerated. The same cannot be said for a Moslem country. Women are almost equal to men in the western world whereas they are not even close in most Moslem countries. Women aren’t stoned or hung for adultery as a 16 year old was recently in Iran. Most Moslem countries simply won’t tolerate any sort of dissent and, in my mind, that makes them a damn sight more dangerous than Jerry Fallwell and his ilk.
Very well.
All quotes taken from here, which is a very deep drink o’ water for SOCAS material.
Since the US is predominantly Christian, I tend to think of Christianity as our most prevalent disease. Certainly other religious traditions are equally virulent in nature, but it makes sense, under the circumstances, for those who view religion as a scourge to focus on the biggest problem that confronts them. I have few qualms about voicing my dim view of Christianity as a kind giant mass delusion, and do not feel particularly sorry that this offends some people. If they don’t want me to voice my sense of frustration, they can refrain from discussing or expressing their faith in my presence, as I find their beliefs no less repugnant than they find my skepticism. It’s painfully ironic to me that Christians could possibly feel “oppressed” by “anti-Christian sentiment” in a nation where their influence is so pervasive one literally cannot avoid it without hiding in the wilderness. I fear I have little sympathy for their concerns, as they clearly care very little about mine. I simply do unto others as I have been done to countless times, and if folks don’t like it, tough. Is it OK to disparage Christianity? Sure: After all, why do the Christians have such a problem with getting as good as they give?
I disagree that Christians are, in any meaningful sense, opporessed in this country.
Nevertheless, voicing your contempt is rude. Not all Christians are rude, so you can’t return the favor to them en masse.
Just like it’s rude for feminists to tell anti-male jokes.
Daniel
I am not ready to take any responsibility for the actions of a member who is not only obsessed with my location, but can’t stop harassing me about this issue, dragging others along to join her in this and despite my repeated request to stop this.
If she is allowed to hijack threads with this over and over again since the very first days of my membership, why do you expect me to let her do this without replying at the location she choses to post her off-topic harassments?.
I made one thread on the BBQ about this, once again asking her to stop. You can read the thread. You can see the result in this very thread once again.
I don’t see any use in making yet an other thread on that forum to ask her to stop. Do you see the use of such an action?
I don’t know about the other member you mention or what his problems with other members are. Yet I do know to have read the following
I said to Mehitabel repeatedly and from the very first days of my membership, that she was inventing and spreading false and inaccurate information on and about me. Hence she knows very well she is "knowingly spreading false/inaccurate information.
In addition this ongoing practice is to me very abusive, very hateful, very harassing and a very extreme attempt to invade my privacy.
I most certainly expect that even if by some inexpected malfunctioning of the system I use you could find out where my real IP is located, you would not dislcose any information anywhere or to anyone about this.
Salaam. A
Ever wonder why they’re so bent-out-of-shape?
That’s not funny!
Daniel
I’ve got a theory: Because decades of politesse got them nowhere. Exasperation ensued. There’s a wonderful litte series Penn & Teller produce. It’s called Bullshit (The Bible is featured in one episode). Teller refers to God as an “imaginary friend”. Very rude; and necessary, if you ask me. Most Christian’s aren’t rude? I would counter that most Christians don’t even know when they’re being rude. Maybe the athiests and agnostics find, after 30 or so years on this Earth, that they’ve had enough.
It’s a terrible theory. The feminist movement has had its impolite members since its inception. (I thought you were joking).
At any rate, being a jerk is never a good tactical move. When feminists tell anti-male jokes, the main effect they have is of alienating men who might otherwise be their ally. Tell a joke about jerky guys, sure. But tell a joke about guys in general, and you shoot yourself in the foot.
There’s a difference between being forthright (which I wholeheartedly endorse) and being vitriolic (which is unnecessary and often counterproductive).
And that applies here.
If God did not exist, it would be necessary for man to Insult Him–is that what you’re saying? Voltaire spins in his grave.
Of course it’s not necessary. That’s ridiculous. While it’s fun–and while it’s okay (since folks go into a P&T show knowing they’re a couple of irreverent, hilarious assholes)–it’s not necessary.
That’s very different from pooping on someone’s religion in the course of a previously polite conversatoin.
Daniel
Really?
Please tell me then what the debates were about when I studied Islam on Arab universities? You know, debates between teacher and student and the likes? On how to pronounce the Arabic language?
Tell me also what my own research is about, because you know, I am now completely lost about my knowledge on and about myself and my work. You come to say I did and do not research what I researched/research on, do not have written what I wrote etc…
In fact you come to say that I am sort of dead without knowing.
In fact, you also say that if not physically dead, my intellect is sort of dead.
Thank you for your judgement, bu I don’t think so.
In the Western country of my mother, homosexuals can get married and they have a homosexual as a very important leading politician.
Where do I mention that this would be the case?
But besides that, you would be very surprized when you would be able to read classical Arab poetry.
I would not like to feed all Western women who must run and hide from their tolerant-violent husbands, nor would I like to pay the wages of all those who are payed less for the same job as men.
So?
By the way, wher did the OP mention homosexuality and women’s right. I mussed have missed it.
Define “most” please?
As for lunatics of the type Jerry Fallwell/Judge More Judgin on the Ten Commandments Rule: give them the tools to bein a postiion of running the USA and you shall see why to me he is just as lunatic and dangerous as any lunatic in the Iranian government.
You have there such a lunatic in the White House. He is at the moment massacring Muslims in their own nation and declares to be “guided by God” to “erradicate Evil”.
Different worlds, different views, yet idiots remain idiots and raping religion and using it for political goals is not limited to Islam.
Salaam. A
No, no, no, the version we told at Wellesley was: “How many (seven sisters college) girls does it take to change a light bulb?”
“THAT’S WOMEN AND THAT’S NOT FUNNY!”
I’m not looking at the hijack, but I apologize if I started anything amiss. Some buttons, even if they’re sitting there eight inches in diameter and flashing bright red with a big yellow “Push me!” written on them, should not be pushed. Sorry.
And probably most of the people telling anti-Christian jokes are ex-Christians to begin with. If you’re telling religious jokes in this country, sheer numbers are going to dictate that most of them will be told about Christians by Christians. And again, it’s a power thing too–if a black comedian does a stand-up about the silly things white folks do, is it the same as a white comedian doing a night of ‘Rastus n’ Liza’ jokes?
In a purely just and reasonable universe, sure–I see foibles in every group that are just plain funny when you’re not from the group. But there’s too much history and baggage and inequality to just dismiss. Same with Christianity. And then of course there’s Christians and Christians–I don’t think an Epsicopalian telling jokes about the Amish would be a big hit. And one of the reasons we Catholics get joked about so much is that we’re one big united flashy (all those robes and candles and stuff) target.
Sometimes I have to grit my teeth at some of the jokes and I’ll speak up if I think they’re tarring with too broad a brush–but ban the jokes or get the government involved? No thanks–the cure would be worse than the disease.
No Aldebaran, they are not the same.
Intellectual debate, true intellectual debate where someone can reject the very notion that Mohammad was a prophet or that the Koran is the word of God is not tolerated in most Moslem countries. Put another way, it is next to impossible to be a vocal atheist in most Moslem countries. And by most I mean nearly all of them.
On the tolerance scale, that ranks a lot lower than anything Falwell has done. One judge who happens who wants to have the Ten Commandments in his court is not the same as an entire judicial system made up of clergy. Criticism of Christianity is allowed because we are a secular society. The same cannot be said for most (again, read all) Moslem countries.
Perhaps Arabic poetry does contain homosexuality but that does not equate to a tolerance of homosexuality by Arab countries.
I don’t see how the insults could be meant for God, and I think that’s a rather absurd message to take away, quite frankly; rather, I think the barbs are directed at those who would take offense to one judging the Bible to be a historical fantasy, and a rather poor one at that (despite some nice language).
OK, I’ll be honest. I pretty much skimmed from post 22 onward, so if this was said before, I apologize.
I think, re: the OP, that one reason we (Americans) feel free to criticize Christianity and not so much other religions is that we (mistakenly) perceive these other religions as something indicating race, and we’re terrified of being accused of racism.
If I write a post that is critical of Judaic law, am I being critical of the Jewish faith, or the Jewish people? If I make a speech critical of Islam, am I criticizing the religion, or all people of olive skin and larger noses who come from the middle east? Even if I as the writer and speaker am clear, there is a very good chance that my audience will misunderstand. In some situations, being accused of racism is enough to destroy a career, even if that wasn’t what you meant. (Natalie Portman recently issued an official apology for being quoted as saying “I’m not black, but I know what it feels like,” when in fact the quote was a snip cut from a larger statement wherein she was saying she understood what W.E.B Dubois) concept of double- consciousness feels like. Yet headlines still read that she’s apologizing for saying she knows what feeling black feels like. And it’s not the reporter apologizing for misquoting Miss Portman, it’s Miss Portman apologizing for what she never said!)
We all know of black people and white people who are Christian. It’s well understood by us that “Christian” is not a race. I don’t think the vast majority of Americans understand that “Muslim” or “Islamist” are not races. (“Jew”, of course, obscures the issue further because it *can * be a race.) While religion is still OK to criticize, race is not. So, being uncertain as to whether or not criticizing a religion makes you a racist, we prefer not to speak.
(This is an addition to the “Christianity is the dominant religion” reason, not offered in lieu of it.)