It was a joking paraphrase of Voltaire, and the least significant line of my post.
Daniel
Lots of good points so far. I think it all boils down to Christianity being the dominant religion. It’s the same reason that it’s acceptable for black comedians to make fun of white people, but a white comedian needs to be very careful about making fun of black people. I think there’s always going to be a tendency to defend the underdog, because the “big guy” doesn’t need to be defended.
Having said that, I don’t know that I’d necessarily say Christianity gets more criticism than Islam. I hear a lot of talk these days about how Islam is supposedly ‘inherently’ a religion of violence. This goes beyond simply claiming it’s incorrect to basically a flat-out statement that it is evil. I think we’re seeing a more spirited defense of Islam because the attacks on it have become more spirited. I don’t think that kind of extreme criticism would be well-received if it were applied to Christianity either.
Personally, I don’t put any stock in any of those religions; Christianity just seems to come up in conversation a lot more. When was the last time someone started a thread espousing the virtues of Judaism or Buddhism or Hinduism?
And I liked the point made about Jewish people already being self-deprecating. How do you make fun of someone who’s already making fun of himself?
I think what the OP is getting at is the lack of actual debate about Islamic religious beliefs and the amount of scope and criticism directed against it, thats also something I’d like to know as well.
Can’t follow here. What is not the same?
Define “tolerated”. Because there are people of other religions in Islamic nations and they are practicing their religion. My own mother was one of them and her chapel is still where it always was. Including altar, cross, and everything needed to say mass.
I know a lot of atheists. Most of them that I know at home are of course “raised as Muslim” yet do not even bother to listen to the call of a muezzin. So you need to define what you mean with “atheist” here.
List the Islamic nations that in your view have such a system please?
Once again you say I can’t do the research I do. Yet I still did and do it. I wrote a doctoral thesis on the history of Al Qur’an as text for a starter. In Arabic and an other language both. Read and judged and discussed and defended by me both at my main European and my main Arab univ (which is not located in some backwards hellhole eather).
Nobody was “shocked” about my subject because this is not something that is not studied on before. Discussions were different depending where I was, yet nevertheless discussions it were and defending my views and conclusions I did.
You seem to think about Islam as something static while it is something very much alive. Always was and shall always be, no matter how much some fundamentalists or sects try to impose their views at a given moment in its history.
I never said it was. I said that at a certain point in Islamic (and pre-Islamic) history it was not looked at as it officially looked at now.
Salaam. A
Oh, was it tactics I was supposed to take seriously? Here’s my tactic: I don’t accuse people of harboring malignant delusions if they refrain from expecting me to take those delusions seriously. I mean, really, why shouldn’t I find the interjection of any form of witnessing into an otherwise secular conversaiton rude in the extreme? What gives Christians a special pass? They don’t suffer from any obvious mental illness, so what’s their excuse? Why is it OK under any circumstances to assume I would happily join in? Did they ask me beforehand if I found expressions of faith distasteful? Do they have the right to just assume everybody thinks Christianity is all Goodness and Light? Do they stop to consider that maybe some folks might regard Christianity as one of the most prolonged disasters humanity has ever inflicted on itself, and would rather not be reminded of its presence on a daily, nay hourly basis? No, probably not. So I guess I’ll have to keep reminding them, until they get it through their skulls.
[Moderator Hat ON]
OK, now, officially, let us completely drop the whole “Aldebaran lives in Belgium/No I Don’t” thing in this thread. Aldebaran, if you would email me links to prior GD mehitabel posts that you consider harrassment I will take a look at them. Don’t go into it in GD threads.
For the record, based on the information I have as an admin right now, neither I nor anyone else can determine what country Aldebaran is posting from. Really.
[Moderator Hat OFF]
Lochdale, would you please cite the relevant laws in Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, Jordan, Kuwait, Qatar, Brunei, (or any Muslim country removed from the particular troubles of the Middle East), where analytical discussions of the Qur’an or the Prophet are forbidden? Could you identify any intellectuals from those countries (or from the rest of the M.E.N.A. region) who have been banned or have gone into exile for making inappropriate comments regarding Islam?
You have made a number of quite absolute statements for which I have never seen examples and I would really like to see the evidence.
Right. This mainly was due to the fact that many early European settlers came to the US to escape religious persecution. Although it was less that they wanted a truly godless government, but more they didn’t want any specific conception of god to be officially recognized by the government. Also:
Note how many early presidents were Deists. This was true also of many of the founding fathers. Given without SOCAS the US would have been officially Christian, easy to see the appeal of SOCAS to these guys.
Perhaps part of the problem is some Christians feel they need to “save” me. I wish they’d just give me ten bucks and shut up, because I’d be wealthy, and feel a lot more rescued than I do being held captive to standards of decorum that I must show them but they, inexplicably, cannot reward me with in kind.
One day I finally snapped.
Riding the chairlift up Butternut Mountain in the Berkshires, trapped, with nowhere to go but 20’ straight down, I found myself yet again getting an earful from an evangelist. After enduring this clod for the better part of fifteen minutes, he finally paused to ask me a question: Did I know what Hell was like? “Maybe it’s like being stuck on a chairlift with you,” was the obvious reply. Shut him up fast. Churlish? Perhaps. But, you know, I’ve found politeness only encourages them; so I may as well stick up for myself rather than suffer in silence. I’ve mulled over a few more good comebacks, and hope to have them ready the next time a boorish Christian feels the need to drag me back from the edge of the abyss. Maybe word will finally get around “Don’t pester that one; he’s a cranky little bastard.” That’d suit me fine.
Well, reincarnation is real… and undeniable. Literally, every bit of your corporal self is conserved and becomes incorporated into the circle of life in altered form. Chances are almost certain that some of “you” at base will become part and corporeal of one or several future or already living lifeforms. Reflectively, it is also true that you are others reincarnate and many previous lives repose within you. As for “you” (ego) well, that’s just an illusion anyways.
That would explain why I feel like shit sometimes.
Heh, I guess that’s sort of my soylent green take on reincarnation. Really, reincarnation is the only explanation for afterlife that makes sense if you chew on it awhile… 
Yes, it’s the tactics you’re supposed to take seriously: I’m also an atheist who’s unhappy about the short end of the stick we atheists get, and I’d appreciate you not making it worse for all of us. So I’d like you to take tactics seriously, even if you disagree on what constitutes appropriate tactics.
As far as what you propose as a tactic, I suppose it’s fine–but I don’t think everyone who mentions their religion is especially expecting you to take it seriously. They’re just expecting you not to be a jerk about it.
I’ve got a co-worker who is very religious. If her husband gets sick and she mentions to me that her church will be praying for him, she’s not expecting me to suddenly believe in her religion. She’s expecting me to be sympathetic. If I take the opportunity to tell her that she’s a dumbass for hoping prayer is going to matter, then nothing’s happened except that I was a jerk.
I had a previous co-worker (my boss, actually), who came to me one day to tell me that a guy who’d been a thorn in our side for awhile was an atheist–as if that explained his bad behavior. In that case, I raised my eyebrows and said, “I’m an atheist, and I like to think that I’m a moral person.” In that case, he was expecting me to buy into his religion, and I figured I had an obligation to stand up for atheists.
My brother worked for the same guy for awhile, and after my conversation with the guy, the guy asked my brother whether he was also an atheist. “I don’t see it’s any of your business,” was my brother’s answer–also a perfectly valid response to this schmuck.
Look. I can still recite the Lord’s Prayer backwards, a trick I learned as a teenager in order to drive Jesus Crispies off the street corners where we punks used to hang out. I performed formal rituals of banishment on those Jesus Crispies. I’ve written online articles such as “Putting the Fun back in Fundamentalism” in which I describe ways to make stret preachers the objects of much merriment. I’m no stranger to this culture war.
That doesn’t mean I think all religious folk are the enemy. There are millions of folk who, just like me, want to get through their days without anyone bugging them. I respect that. I respect it far more than I could ever disrespect their actual beliefs.
And if I don’t want them trying to convince me their beliefs are right, I figure I ought not try to convince them my beliefs are right.
Just as I can talk about my atheism, they can talk about their religion. As long as neither of us witnesses, everything’s hunky-dory.
Daniel
I mean, really, why shouldn’t I find the interjection of any form of witnessing into an otherwise secular conversaiton rude in the extreme? What gives Christians a special pass? They don’t suffer from any obvious mental illness, so what’s their excuse? Why is it OK under any circumstances to assume I would happily join in? Did they ask me beforehand if I found expressions of faith distasteful? Do they have the right to just assume everybody thinks Christianity is all Goodness and Light? Do they stop to consider that maybe some folks might regard Christianity as one of the most prolonged disasters humanity has ever inflicted on itself, and would rather not be reminded of its presence on a daily, nay hourly basis? No, probably not. So I guess I’ll have to keep reminding them, until they get it through their skulls.
[/QUOTE]
Secularism in Turkey has been defended repeatedly by direct military intervention by that countries armed forces. Moreover, the Turks have been particularly severe in their dealings with the Kurdish minorities.
Both Malaysia and Jordan have anti-blashemphy laws and I am unsure as to Qutar or Brunei. Other than Malaysia and Turkey, the countries you mentioned are fairly small of populationand of little influence in the Middle-East. They are also the most “western” of the Middle-Eastern countries though women and minorties are still shockingly treated in all of these countries.
I don’t mean people you may know or anecdotes you have heard. I would consider anyone who can openly criticize Islam, not just particular tenents or interpretations of the religion, as legitimate opposition to the prevailing religion. Put another way, could an editor or a politician or even a man on the street on a soap box, openly state that he did not belive Mohammed was a prophet or spoke with God and that the Koran was not the word of God? Could he or she do that wihout being arrested or killed?
This is not about debating a particular passage in the Koran or a particular religious methodology but someone who was openly critical of Islam as a religion.
Em, okay, interesting. I have enjoyed many of the comments posted. Although how Aldebaran’s location affects the OP escapes me.
I am not so much concerned about value judgments against other religions. People of every religion are annoying and obnoxious and intolerant. Many people, Christians and others, wear their religion on their sleeves. Just as people criticize Christians for trying to be aggressive in converting the unsaved, I’m sure arguments can be made against Chabad Lubavitch’s mitzvah tanks or their people’s efforts in approaching random strangers (Jews still, but nonetheless) to do a mitzvah. Such assertive tactics annoy many people. But this is not what I’m concerned about.
I’m interested in arguments about how a certain religion’s theology or doctrines are irrational, inconsistent, doesn’t make sense, are misleading, etc., in a very academic or “scholarly” fashion. Although anti-Jewish, anti-Arab, anti-[insert ethnicity] are rightfully condemnable, I am sure criticism or, rather, a learned study of Jewish mitzvot, Christian beliefs, Muslim rituals, Hindu traditions, Buddhist actions, etc., and how they are incompatible with rationality, freedom, liberty, science, etc., would not be accepted as ethnic slurs.
Would works or comments as the above be received similarly as those made against Chrisianity? Would would works such as Bertrand Russell’s Why I Am Not a Christian, or The Book Your Church Does Not Want You to Read (basically a freethinker’s expose of all that is wrong and irrational with Christianity), etc., but regarding another religion be received as the prior works against Christianity are?
For someone like Loopydude, I would presume that if someone went on ranting against Christianity, you’d tolerate it, approve of it, or at least appreciate it. If someone were talking in a similar manner against Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc., would your reaction be the same? Would it be acceptable in your eyes? Would you even care?
It seems to me that most of the reason why Christianity seems to be the recipient of such an attitude, but other religions do not, is basically because Christianity is the dominant religion (and a few other factors, especially related to the minority status of ther religions, that derive from this). There must be more, because similar attitudes - both academic regarding scholarship and publishing and the acceptability of the religion as compatible with science, as well as emotional aspects such as opposition to and even hatred a religion (and there are some people who are very vocal in their hatred towards Christianity) - do not appear in places where other religions dominate. Such attitudes are not so plainly evident (although I’m sure they exist) in Hindu countries, Muslim countries, Buddhist countries, etc. But then, in these countries religion is seen as a key element of social structure and survival, opposite to what’s here in the secular West (which also let minority religions and areligiousness thrive).
Thus, I would posit that what lets Christianity be “debunked” with glee (and any other religion may be debunked without danger to the debunker) is secularism - and not in a governmental sense, meaning separation of Church and state, but in a social sense, meaning that although religion may be an integral part of a society it is not required, nor is there one religion that fulfills such a role for American society in general. The issue is social rather than political. (And, for better or for worse, there is no way for one to really state whether secularism is good or religion’s social role is good; it’s simple one thing that separates the West from the East. And Muslim countries are not the only example. Hindu societies can be quite restrictive, as can indigenous African communities and Shinto communities, etc.: any society where people are expected to adhere to a certain religion, with all it encompasses, and respect and reverance it will find itself inevitably in conflict with the secular West’s openness. Again, each side has its good points and bad points, so I don’t think we can definitively state that secularism is best or communalism/communitarianism (which often involves religion) is best).
WRS/Thû
Terribly sorry for the consecutive post, but for those who may be interested, here are links to:
Bertrand Russell’s Why I Am Not a Christian: And Other Essays on Religion and Related Subjects.
Tim C. Leedom’s The Book Your Church Doesn’t Want You to Read.
WRS/Thû
It will be my pleasure to “Wake Up” people like **Aldebaran ** on this board. Here is an hors d’oeuvre for him.
So God calls Jesus and asks him to bring his trousers down and bend over.
“But God, you cannot do this to me. I am your son”.
“Shut up and do as I say” God replied. And God continued saying “If you do not do as I say, I will make all Christians in the world pay for it “.
So, Jesus succumbed and did what God wanted.
As a result, we see that Christians today are blessed.
Next, God goes to Moses and asks him to bring his pants down and bend over.
“But God, you cannot do this to me. I brought to earth the 10 commandments”.
“Shut up and do as I say” God replied. And God continued saying “If you do not do as I say, I will make all the Jews in the world pay for it “.
So, Moses succumbed and did what God wanted.
As a result, we see that the Jews are the “Chosen People”.
Next, God goes to Mohammad and asks him to bring his pants down and bend over.
“But God, you cannot do this to me. I am the Prophet, the leader of all Muslims”.
“Shut up and do as I say” God replied. And God continued saying “If you do not do as I say, I will make all the Muslims in the world pay for it “.
Mohammad replied to God “F.U. I won’t do it”.
As a result, guess what happened.
Until today, everyday, the Muslims bend over, five times a day, with their ass pointing to the Sky.
Back to the Op. So much for disparaging/debunking Christianity but not other religions.
As for **Aldebaran **, with a Belgian mother and an Arab father, he is hiding behind his PhD in Islamic studies trying to play mysterious about his place of birth, as if anyone could give a shit.
This Aldebaran guy is nothing but an egocentric Arab who happens to have a European mother. Holding a PhD in his hand and having read a few Islamic books, he thinks he can come here with his broken English, trying to be cute, while boosting his own ego. Well, sorry **Aldebaran **, some of us who know better, we fire you from your job with your attitude, after a few month of employment with us. Fuck your PhD. I have fired many PhDs in my past positions. And you certainly qualify as one. Please note that you are now on my “Ignore List”. If you don’t know what that means, check out the SDMB options.
It really depends. If it were along the lines of “you do realise, don’t you, what an incredible pain in the ass some of you folks can be,” I’d not likely voice disapproval. If it were along the lines of doing them real harm or denying them the same rights and protections I think ought to be extended to me, I wouldn’t support that at all. Feeling somehow oppressed by Jews or Muslims in the US seems a bit absurd, given their relatively minute numbers, so I would have a hard time taking a rant about them in that context seriously. If you want to rant about the Taliban’s treatment of women, for instance, I’ll gladly hurl a couple spitwads in that direction myself. Equating all Muslims to terrorists or treating them as less-than-human? Again, absolutely not.
If someone was sealed at the moment of death so that no molecules could escape, by your definition that would prevent reincarnation of that person into other people’s bodies. And according to your definition, if you drank someone’s blood so that a significant part of someone else became part of your body, you’d be a reincarnation of that other person, even though the other person might still be alive.
But the normal usage of the word “reincarnation” (see the dictionary) involves a person’s soul or mind being transferred to someone or something else. When some hypnotists try to find out people’s memories of their past lives, it involves a series of distinct ancestors - not people or animals that lived at the same time.
Wake up call - this is not a Pit thread. I found your joke, personally, very insulting and offensive (and I have a twisted sense of humor). Especially since I identify with Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Jesus is not, nor are We, amused.
I would appreciate it if comments made against other religions or insulting them, Christianity included, be taken to the Pit.
This thread is not to discuss the downfalls/faults of religions or of any particular religion.
WRS/Thû - who likes Aldebaran, even if We don’t always agree with him.