I call him Susan. What’s so hard about that?
You are deliberately ignoring what has been pointed out again and again; that there are real, physical differences in the brain with transexuals. If there was an actual flying saucer beaming actual mind control rays that could be seen and recorded doing just that, and tin blocked those rays OF COURSE we should go along with the guy wearing the tinfoil hat.
There is a huge gulf between “common courtesy” and “ass slappin’ / tits comments”. I don’t engage in the latter, no matter who, or what, the other person is.
A la Crocodile Dundee? Yeah, that was a funny scene, but no, I don’t. There’s no need to. Besides, that’s well beyond the pale of “common courtesy”.
You’re attributing something to me that is untrue. It doesn’t skeeve me out. It doesn’t “bend me out of shape”. What you’re doing is called an ad hominem attack. You’re trying to paint me as a Bad Person instead of addressing the substance of what I’m saying. If you can convince yourself, and others, that I’m a Bad Person then you can justify, to yourself, dismissing my opinion.
Oh. Oooops…
What it more or less comes down to, from what I can tell of the science, is this: these people have a body that is one gender and a brain that’s another. That’s different from being delusional in the sense of believing something that is obviously not true, such as your alien example.
Yes. He is.
Uh… has anyone here suggested that? I certainly haven’t, and I certainly wouldn’t support that course of action.
Of course. But am I’m allowed to live my life however I like too? According to some in this thread, the answer is “no”. He wants to be called “she”, I want to call him “he”. Why should I have to live my life according to his terms?
Once again, I’ve never suggested any of this. If he wants to have his genitals removed and get prosthetic breasts and hormone therapy and wear dresses and adopt a womans name… go right ahead. Who am I to tell him how to live his life? I can’t understand why he’d want to do all that but hey, lots of people do lots of things I can’t understand. So what? But at the end of the day he’s still not a woman, he’s a man… with his genitals removed, prosthetic breasts, hormone therapy, and dress, and a woman’s name. So what?
I couldn’t agree more.
Isn’t this true for everyone?
Never thought it was, never thought they did.
Because the alternative is being both incorrect and deliberately insulting.
Are there not real, physical (chemical imbalances), neurological differences in the brain of people with mental illnesses? Schizophrenia? The brain of someone suffering from schizophrenia is otherwise “normal”? Nothin’ going on there? Nothin’ out of the ordinary that might explain why they feel the way they do?
I do not doubt or dispute that human brains vary widely between individuals. But why does this one particular variation require me to call a man “she”?
Clear, concise, and on point. Thank you. I get it.
I still, though… don’t get it. Perhaps it would requie a whole debate about “what defines gender”, which I’m sure has already been done to death and I’m not about to get in to here.
“These people have a body that is one gender and a brain that’s another.” So why can’t we just acknowledge that? Instead of insisting we pretend that one or the other, the body or the mind, isn’t what it actually is?
A man’s body is a man’s body. But because he has a woman’s brain… you expect me to pretend he has a woman’s body? Why can’t I just pretend he has a man’s brain?
Except that insanity is a different thing than a mismatch between mind and body.
Because it’s polite, and hides your bigotry and persecution complex better than you have been in this thread. You sound EXACTLY like the fundie Christians who whine that not being allowed to attack and discriminate against others over matters of sexuality and religion means they are being oppressed.
Why?
With most people, there’s a match between what they look like and how they identify themselves. That makes it easy to assume those two things always match up and as a result, that people are really always whatever sex they look like. But I don’t think that’s actually the case. And the assumption that everybody who falls somewhere between the sexes, or at least doesn’t completely fit in, is either nuts or faking it doesn’t clarify matters.
Because SHE doesn’t.
I just posted a sentence or two about that. It may have been done to death, but unfortunately that’s exactly where this leads. Not just “what defines gender,” but what identity is in the first place and all of that wonderful stuff. Without making a whole topic of it, for example, the people in this thread who are skeptical of the whole transgender idea are generally saying “it’s all in their heads, so it’s not real.” The brain is a part of the body, too, so the whole thing might not be as simple as saying their bodies are right but their brains are wrong.
I think we do acknowledge the situation you’re talking about. If we didn’t, this discussion wouldn’t happen. And nobody’s asked you to pretend anything. Say ou see a guy walking down the street and say “Hey, man.” He’s outraged and responds “Can’t you see I’m a woman?” That’s a person who might be crazy. The situation we’re talking about here is more complicated and I don’t think it involves anybody pretending to do anything.
I don’t think they’re faking, and I wouldn’t call it “nuts” either. The argument was that a physical difference in the brain accounts for why a person “falls somewhere between the sexes”. OK. I agree. My rebuttal argument is that physical differences in the brain account for a lot of things. Why is this one particular situation treated differently?
Marley23, thank you for having this discussion with me. I’ve learned more from you (and only you) about this subject in the past half hour than I ever knew before. I can’t quite say I agree with, or even understand, all the facets of this topic, but I can say that this conversation has been eye opening. Thank you.
And now I really do have to get to work, so I’ll be bowing out. Good day.
I was generalizing a bit. The OP hasn’t come back in several days but some of his posts left that impression. [ETA: Hell, the thread title has “chooses to be transexual.” They can choose whether or not to take hormones or have surgery, but I don’t think anybody chooses to be transexual.]
Because this one is about identity, which is something that exists in the brain in the first place. That’s not the same as believing there are external people beaming thoughts into your brain or that people you know are impostors, for example.
Because it works ? Because it makes the people involved happier and generally live longer ? Because it fits the facts ?
Because in the case of transgenderism, the alternatives for an consistent majority are
- Sexual reassignment surgery + hormone treatments
- Despair and suicide
So even though surgery isn’t the best option, it’s often the only option that leaves the patient happy and alive.
When you make analogies like this
you leave out the relevant outcome, which is that untreated, this patient is at a high risk for self-mutilation and suicide. Believing in aliens from space is not a case which requires urgent intervention. Conservative treatment can be applied, including therapy, because the negative outcome risk is very low. If you fail to treat the patient … nothing happens.
Now, if you said “he honestly, sincerely, emphatically believes he’s being subjected to mind control rays from outer space which tell him to murder innocent people,” or “he honestly, sincerely, emphatically believes he’s being subjected to mind control rays from outer space which tell him to cut his own legs off,” then we’d consider treatment that’s more direct, including mind-altering drugs and (once upon a time) lobotomy.
What mind-altering substance cures the transgendered person? None — yet. Hormones bring relief, so we use them, in addition to surgery.
Well, yeah. Being a direct parallel of the actual situation is a good thing for an analogy.
I’m not disputing that even slightly. My position is that I classify a person’s gender by the entire package, including the body, and including the natal gender. (Natal brain gender…meh, not so much. But that’s just me.) To me the gender of your brain isn’t the final word, and costuming or altering the body doesn’t toggle you into the alternate category. Even if you do have the brain of a skyscraper.
But that’s just me.
Certainly for a while. (I’d be more worried about this happening but all the evidence I have says that my friends and immidiate family members (the ones I have any contact with anyway) are positively boring in their gender status.)
Given time I might get more used to the idea. But snap reaction? Yeah, I’d be weirded out. I’m not terrific with unfamiliar situations.
I politely suggest that that is your problem to deal with.
Cutting off contact with a person suffering from a gender identity crisis is just solving your problem by making their problem worse.