Exactly!!! And if you work with said person, would you refer to Susan as “him” as in, “Would you please ask Susan if HE would get me a copy of that report?”
I think all people are asking for is common courtesy. Believe what you want, but at least TREAT people like they wish to be treated.
Well, you keep comparing transexuals to people suffering severe delusions that would generally lead them to being institutionalized, so… yeah, you’ve got to forgive us if we think you’re advocating that transexuals be locked up. If that’s not what you want to happen, perhaps you should find better analogies.
Unfortunately, when the subject is an 8-year-old, I think it’s probably more likely that it is a passing whim. I’m certainly uncomfortable with the idea that an 8-year-old is capable of making this sort of decision.
I politely suggest that breaking off contact is dealing with my problem.
And while it’s fun and easy to from the armchair decide that wouldn’t it be wonderful if everyone lacked negative reactions of any kind and if they could just crush their own thoughts and will to make things wonderful for others…reality has other ideas. Sometimes people need to be sent to their room until they can play nice. And sometimes as adults we have to do the sending ourselves.
It seems to me that breaking off contact is basically saying, “because I can’t deal with this, we will never speak again, even though it will make you feel as if I no longer love you or care for your well-being.” It’s putting your burden onto somebody who already has a plate full. If that’s your idea of dealing with it, I suppose you’re entitled to think that. It’s not a very charitable way to behave, in my opinion.
And suggesting a person not break off contact is basically saying “screw you and your thoughts, preferences, and involuntary reactions; your personality and needs are so utterly unimportant that you can be told to just take your reactions and shove them up your ass.” Wow, that is charitable, isn’t it? In reaction to this I immidiately feel justified in not only being uncharitable myself, but also going further and being a complete ass myself. (Not that I’m not a complete ass normally…)
Look, the situation would obviously not be optimal. And it’s all very well for you to decide that only one party needs to be given any shred of consideration. But don’t expect the other parties to be impressed with the equitability of your assessment.
Speaking as someone who has been married to someone who turned out to identify as transsexual, and whose divorce was in large part caused by this. . .no, it’s not the more charitable thing to do, but it’s sometimes the only thing a person can do, given the situation, that isn’t going to result in greater damage. If the choice is between being abusive and walking away. . .well, better the individual in question know their limitations. Granted, it would be better to do it with full communication, but. . .some people can’t handle it.
I can only speak from a spousal relationship standpoint, and not from any other. That being said. . .when you love someone as they are, and it seems that, overnight, they’re adopting what feels like an entirely new personality, a bunch of new interests–hell, even a new name–it can be gut-wrenching. And, while you might be able to accept the reality of gender dysphoria–hell, even if you even researched it in college–it’s a lot harder to do so when you’re emotionally involved. Walking is better than making the person’s life hell.
That being said, my own situation was a bit different; I wasn’t upset so much by the disorder and dressing so much as the quasi-illegal purchase of hormones from Vanatau, the lack of therapy, and the simultaneous discoveries that he was A.) polyamorous and B.) a furry, which I C.) was not. Plus general assholery, the assumption that my being upset was due to mental illness, and. . .it was just a mess, all around. His case isn’t the norm, and therefore neither was my experience.
That being said, in this case, with the child. . .if the therapist says it’s a good idea, it’s probably a good idea. Additionally, if the child does turn out to be TG, it’s a lot easier if she doesn’t go through puberty in the first place. Male puberty can be delayed with medication, and many of the physical changes can therefore be avoided. As some of them are impossible to change later on (you can’t get rid of an Adam’s apple, for instance). . .if they know now, might as well act, so the kid’s life can be as rich, full and non-painful as possible. Especially as, so long as hormones haven’t been administered nor knives used, anything done now can be reversed.
That being said, I do hope that the parents truly are leaving all options open, and aren’t somehow fixating on their child’s special-ness to the point where, if it turns out that he isn’t TG, he feels like he’s disappointing them. Because, while there’s every chance the feeling is legitimate. . .okay, when I was 8, I wanted more than anything in the world to be a doctor. I didn’t feel that way at 16, for reasons that had nothing to do with potential. Kids sometimes know what they want, but they’re kids, and they could be wrong. That being said, the presence of a competent therapist should be able to help the kid out either way.
So I think anyone who feels that strongly - to the point of having their body restructured - that he is really a she is not someone I’d be inclined to get into an argument with over gender. The person is obviously willing to go to far greater lengths to support her side of the argument than I am willing to go to support mine, so in the interests of minimizing interpersonal conflict I’ll just refer to that person as that person wishes to be referred to, regardless of my personal feelings on the matter.
Are you saying you should take a rifle and shoot the person, then drink the blood from the warm corpse? Wow, that is extreme!
Yeah, I can make up positions too. It’s called a strawman, and it’s obvious as hell.
What I would advocate is to say, “Look, this is difficult for me. I know you’re going through some hard times, but I’m going to have to get my head straight on this before I’m going to be able to help you through it. Can you give me a little while, and a little space, while I figure this out on my own?”
I wouldn’t just cut off contact. Ease out, if necessary, but don’t just bail in an instant.
I think perhaps those of us who have never experienced the brain/body mismatch are not capable of truly understanding the problem on gut level, and certainly not in the manner that transsexual people experience it directly. Intellectually I can wrap my head around it but emotionally I … just don’t get it. After many years I have come to realize I don’t have to “get it” or understand it, I just have to allow allow people to live their lives in the manner those other people find most fulfilling.
Part of the problem is that there really is no societal role for someone with that sort of mismatch. Transsexual transition treatments actually ARE an acknowledgment that there is such a mismatch between brain and body.
Here’s something that might work for you - men who spontaneously develop actual breasts, gynecomastia, have acquired a secondary sexual characteristic of a woman. No one seems to get upset or question their desire to have those breasts removed. Would you? Likewise, if a woman starts growing a beard as thick and full as a man’s would you question her sanity or motivation if she wanted it permanently removed?
My understanding is that the transsexual’s experience is akin to that, but even more extreme. They haven’t just acquired one charcteristic of the “wrong” gender, their entire body is wrong. Asking them to just suck it up and live with it is like telling a man who grew 40DD breasts that he can’t have a mastectomy or a woman with a beard like the guys in ZZTop that, not only can’t she have electrolysis, she’s not even allowed a freakin’ razor. If there were truly no alternative they would have to just deal with it (and there have been numerous cases in history of folks found to be living as a different gender than the one they were born with) but in our present time we can do something to change these people’s bodies. If you remove the breasts of a man with gynecomastia it doesn’t change the genes or body chemistry or whatever caused the breast growth in the first place, it “merely” restores a normal appearance. A bearded lady is still a bearded lady after electrolysis removes the unwanted hair in the sense that, again, the underlying disorder isn’t cured by it but it sure as hell makes her feel better and makes her life a lot easier in mainstream society.
Because experience has shown that transsexuals are far less likely to engage in self-destructive behavior and/or suicide if we let them change their bodies and live as much as possible according to their brain’s gender rather than their body gender. In the interests of keeping people functional AND preventing unnecessary and premature death I am in favor of the current transsexual treatments and in calling these people by the gender pronouns they prefer. I’d prefer a society where a person can mention they are transsexual without fear of prejudice or feel a need to hide such a fact about himself or herself but in fact we do not live in such a society. Thus, I have no problems with transsexuals attempting to conceal their past genders and medical history in these matters because, sad to say, they are significantly safer when they do that.
It is also my understanding that a certain number of transsexuals do not, in fact, have surgery, or all available surgeries, for their condition. There is a subset who are content with hormonal treatments and appearing as their brain gender when fully clothed. You know, I don’t have a problem with those folks choosing to stop “between”, either. Their bodies, their choice. It’s not my life to live. I fully support whatever therapy or procedures are required to maximize their happiness and ability to function, but would never insist on them undergoing one they don’t feel they need or want. Also note that this is different than transsexuals who can’t afford surgery but want it.
Really, it’s a complicated issue when you get into details.
I think part of the problem people are having is the notion that this is somehow a choice. A transsexual was just as much a transsexual at age 8 as he or she would be at age 30, and many of them say that they knew they were at that young an age. IF an 8 year old is a transsexual (leaving aside for a moment how that is determined) then it’s not that they have chosen to be that, it’s that they ARE that, and have been (it seems) since birth.
Now, of course, there are other issues that may lead to some confusion here. For example, a girl may express a desire to be a boy because she perceives that boys are allowed to do things that she is interested in that girls are not allowed to do. She doesn’t want to BE a boy, she wants what are perceived to be the PRIVILEGES of a boy while still being a girl. Likewise, a boy might have what society perceives as girly interests without wanting to actually be a girl. However, that is why anyone expressing transsexual feelings has to go through therapy and treatment before even being prescribed hormones, much less getting surgery. Part of the purpose is to make sure that what is at hand is really transsexualism and not something else.
For an 8 year old child no one is recommending surgery - that’s years in the future, if at all. The kid isn’t on hormones, either. All that is happening is that someone with a boy body is being allowed to live as a girl. There is nothing permanent going on here. If it is a passing phase then everything can be reversed with no long term harm, and possibly a great deal of benefit if the experience clarifies in this person’s mind what, exactly, they are, identify as, and how they want to live. If this child IS a transsexual then years of trauma may be avoided (there’s no guarantee of a trauma-free childhood for anyone, let’s be real here) and puberty can be delayed with minimal risk until the child IS old enough to make an informed decision about the rest of his or her life. As a result of delayed puberty any decision for surgery will have a much better outcome, and if the young adult comes to realize that he or she is not a transsexual then puberty can proceed in accord with the body’s born gender with, again, no long term harm done.
I really can’t see much argument against this - most of what is occuring is delaying a permanent, irrevocable decision until the child is an adult. Allowing the child to live as the brain gender (assuming the child is a transsexual) isn’t that much different than the usual year or two an adult has to live in the … call it “destination” gender before actual surgery. It would also allow the transsexual to have a more normal experience in that the person would grow up in the societal role of their “brain gender”, which might make for a much healthier and better adjusted human being.
I wonder if the OP is coming back.
Don’t be absurd.
Then how come you didn’t notice that what you posted was exactly as much a strawman? You were supposing that the transgendered would have a hurt reaction to my departing. I was supposing that I would have a hurt reaction to being told to STFU and play along. Is that too complicated for you?
Or are you just unable to so much as conceive that a person would feel invalidated by being told to just shut up and pretend not to be bothered by the situation? Perhaps you have utterly dehumanized me in your mind, or something?
That’s nice. You do it your way, and I’ll do it mine. I’m not inclined to take the advice of somebody who so callously disregards my opinions on the matter - heck, given that they are wilfully operating on incomplete information, such advice is likely to be crap anyway.
Certainly, but there’s a big difference between a 25-year-old saying that they already knew they were the wrong gender when they were very young, and a young child saying that he knows it now.
For one thing, 8-year-olds don’t really understand gender yet. They know that the opposite sex has cooties, and that’s it. At most, their understanding is limited to “Sarah is purty!”
Given that there’s no functional difference between a girl and a boy until puberty, I don’t see that allowing a possibly transgendered but probably just weird kid to live as the other gender is necessarily the right choice. At puberty, I’d probably see the issue differently.
I see your point, but for that hypothetical 25 year old the statement was no less true at 8 than at 25.
This sort of concern is why people who suspect they have a transsexual child should get that child into therapy with professionals and not just try to wing it on their own. Also why nothing irrevocable should be done prior to puberty.
I disagree. They don’t have the same understanding as adults, but 8 year olds are capable of understanding that boys have a penis and a girl has a vagina, that women have babies and men are fathers and that there is a mysterious activity called “sex” that makes all that happen. They understand that pink is for girls, blue is for boys, it’s OK for girls to wear dresses but not boys. I’ve met MANY 8 year old boys with very firm ideas that some activities are “boys only” and others are strictly for girls. Granted that this is a mix of biology and society, but for 8 year olds gender goes beyond just “they have cooties!”
The problem is that when puberty occurs the transsexual starts down the “wrong” physical development path, which costs time, money, and effort to reverse where it is even possible to reverse at all.
Let’s look at something slightly different - suppose this kid is not, in fact, a transsexual but a transvestite and there had been some confusion over wearing of the opposite gender’s clothing as a desire to be the opposite gender. Well, OK, the experience lets the kid figure it out. He also discovers that his desire to wear women’s clothing will not cause his family to reject him, although he may need to refrain from wearing it in certain social contexts given how our society is. He will know that he’s not a transsexual. Given a supportive environment, he’ll also figure out if he’s hetero or homosexual. So where the harm be here?
Is there a possibility of teasing and bullying? Yes. There is also that possibility for little he-men masculine boys of heterosexual orientation. I won’t minimize the harm that can come from that - I’m a heterosexual woman who was bullied for many years in school - but while that’s important it’s not exactly a related issue. Clearly, the parents will need to protect their child as best they can, but that applies to children of any sort.
This sounds like you and transgenderism.
This is completely wrong. What you’re describing is more like a preschool age child’s understanding of gender. A typical 8 year old should have a pretty good understanding of both culturally accepted masculine and feminine behavior and the physical differences between males and females.
And actually, don’t pre-schoolers also have pretty distinct ideas about these things? I’ve read about very young kids, like 3-4, having really strong ideas about girls wear this or boys do that, because it’s how they’re figuring out the world…exceptions and so forth come later.
(Why am I somehow reminded of the kid from Kindergarten Cop who kept telling everyone, “Boys have a penis and girls have a vagina” at inappropriate moments?)
How on earth would it hurt YOU? Let’s see, you’ve basically said you would cut all ties with a friend upon finding out they were transgendered. And if you found out you worked with someone who was, you would a.) refer to said person as “them” instead of as “he/she” “him/her” b.) by last name:
And YOU are the one who is hurt. Riiiiiiight.
You’re a real peach.