You didn’t answer my question: why is it okay to medically treat those birth defects, and not treat transgenderism? Why is that particular birth defect a “suck it up and deal” situation, while all the others can be corrected to help the kid live a normal, happy life?
We’ve been digressing like Hell in this thread, but I suspect you meant, “regressing.” Well, let’s think about that for a minute, shall we? In the Bible, slavery was practiced by virtually every society, and was considered the proper order of things. Today, most nations recognize slavery as an anathema, and have outlawed it. I’d call that progress. The Bible frequently endorses genocide as an acceptable resolution to national conflicts. Now we consider it to be the worst crime imaginable. Score another one for modern man, I say. The Bible calls for women to be subordinate to men in all things. Today, at least in Western nations, women are the legal equals of men. Although, I suppose to you this is a sign of our degeneracy?
That is, of course, entirely apart from advances in knowledge. Medicine, nutrition, astronomy, physics, chemistry. All areas where we’ve made advances that were literally inconceivable to the people who wrote the Bible. But, according to you, technology doesn’t count, so none of those kids who were saved from mortal illnesses by modern medical technology, communities saved from famine by modern farming techniques, people who would have been killed or cast out for being possessed who now have their mental illnesses treated and cared for… none of that counts as “progress.”
Are you just inventing your own definitions for words now? Perfect is always superior to imperfect. It’s what the word* means*, for fuck’s sake.
I’m not Lacunae Quell, but I’ll take a stab at it. It’s OK, perhaps even the Will Of G-d ™, to medically treat most defects of the body, but not OK, even Sinful ™, to medically treat transgenderism, because transgenderism makes people like Lacunae Quell think about their genitals and, by extension, about their sexuality (post #1 is my cite). If transgenderism is something that can be treated medically, then it’s something that falls in the spectrum of “stuff that happens to otherwise ordinary people that we can fix or accommodate” rather than “stuff that bad people do to themselves that we can use to make ourselves feel superior.”
This is the most entertaining thread I’ve read all week.
What advantage does it gain someone to claim they’re the opposite gender? Someone who’s already an adult when they come to terms with their dysphoria has many accounts in their male name, has friends and relationships, has a job, etc. They must now tell those people they no longer wish to be called Dan, but Diane. It’s an embarrassing and humiliating process, particularly because of people like the OP. I know; I helped my best friend through it. And she still gets mail in her old name, which hurts every time she sees it.
And what about children, who don’t have those ties? It’s triply embarrassing, because kids can be evil little shits when unsupervised. A boy acting and dressing like a girl will be teased and physically harmed when the adults aren’t looking. If it’s just a choice, something they decided it would be fun to pretend to be, they could stop at any time, couldn’t they?
Now, it’s entirely possible a child could be mistaken. Avoiding permanent treatments is the best course right now; I’m pretty sure surgery before puberty would have very bad effects when the child grows up anyway. The state of a youth’s genitalia is irrelevant to the world, anyway. When the child matures and understands their situation better, then they can come to terms with either the real permanency of the situation or the fact it was just a phase.
Well, let’s put it this way - even if you DON’T believe that a “woman can be trapped in a man’s body”, or vice versa – however, you DO have an obligation to show that person respect. And in polite society, that would include treating that person as a woman, EVEN if you believe she is still a he. No, not ALL beliefs deserve respect – however, as long as a person is NOT HURTING anyone.
Like I said, the old “Golden Rule.”
Someone can believe a priest to be deluded by his beliefs, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t refer to him as “Rev.” or “Fr.”, as that’s his proper title. Etiquette and respect, at the very least. (To insist on doing otherwise would be a jackass thing to do, no?)
And no, I’m not talking about “anything goes”, so don’t start bringing up, “Does that mean this includes beastiality, pedophilia, cats and dogs marrying each other!” as someone ALWAYS does!
This is so disingenuous. How on Earth are transgender people trying to “force” their beliefs on you? By living their lives in a way that makes them comfortable? By trying to be happy? How?
Oh, by asking to be called by a name they prefer, and be called “she” instead of “he” or vice versa. Oh, the oppression! And it isn’t as if people refuse to do that anyway; not only are transgender individuals routinely called by the gender they feel is incorrect, but they are also regularly the victims of assault and murder. One side is being oppressed here, and it isn’t the Christians.
Edited to add:
It is just astonishing to me how you can come into an OP that is questioning the right of parents to raise their kid in a way that seems fit, and suggests a better course of action might be to take their child from them, and raise it in a way the OP “feels” would be better, and say that the side who wants to TAKE KIDS AND FORCE THEM TO EXPRESS THEIR GENDER in way that suits them is “oppressed”.
I’ve seen information indicating that transition is infinitely smoother if a child begins the process before, or shortly after puberty kicks in. If the subject kid is the same kid I saw a thing on a while back, everyone was convinced and comfortable with the diagnosis that the kid is transgendered. Why make the transition more difficult than it already is? Why not make it easier for the kid to “pass” and why not live the life that feels most comfortable? I hear so many stories about people who “knew” their sexuality from a young age. I don’t see why this wouldn’t be true for transgendered kids, as well.
Thank you so much for that link. It’s a salutary example of how we think we’re well informed about something, through media reporting, documentaries, etc, and in fact we’re completely and totally wrong.
You saw a brief local news report on the kid, and presume to know her inner emotional life? Why not leave that to her parents and therapists and, I don’t know, the kid herself?
And if I were to make broad assumptions about the nature of sexuality based on my own personal experiences, I would come to a very different, but equally wrong, conclusion.
I think it’s terribly sad that you put so much effort into resisting something that’s completely natural, because you believe that God hates that particular aspect of your humanity. I hate religions that teach that sexuality is inherently sinful.
What if you were born a human male, look like a human male, but think and feel like a human female? If transgendered people thought and felt like the gender of their bodies, there wouldn’t be an issue.
What if we change your analogy to read like this: “I’m a male on the outside, yes. I was naturally born a male human from a female human… I function like a human male, look like a human male… but I think like a god, and I’m not a human male.” That’s a closer analogy to transgenderism. And now that I look at it, it’s pretty much Jesus in a nutshell, init?
I never said YOU did, I merely posed the possibility that the kid MIGHT be homosexual and just isn’t sure yet. I also posed that it could be a phase and that he really might be transsexual. SHEESH!
There are some people who are “wired” differently. It’s not a decision, it’s not a choice. It’s something programmed into the brain. I don’t understand it, I’m not one. But, these people do exist.
Therapy should be done. Experts should evaluate and try to find out what does less damage - staying “as is” or “making the change”.
Look at it this way - are you right handed or left handed? Did you choose to be? Or are you simply that way? Maybe it’s similar, just more “taboo”. Not so long ago, people were forced to be right handed because the left was evil or demonic or some other nonsense.
Example: I was born extremely smart and incredibly good looking. I didn’t decide to be so great, I just am.
I wouldn’t force a child to do any of those things. I’m wondering what it means to ‘encourage’.
If the child publicly presents themselves sometimes as male and sometimes as female, that will get noticed, and will lead to bullying, or worse. I think, as a parent, I would be concerned about their safety, so I would discourage that. But it seems almost meaningless to say, “yes, you’re a girl, you just can’t act like one in public” (but maybe it would give some feeling of validation? I don’t know). I wondered if Dopers (who mostly seem very tolerant, and open-minded about this) would be happy to let the child enrol as girl at school (would you tell the principal? Or the nurse?), use the girl’s toilets, get changed with the girls for swimming, go to girls-only sleepovers, join Girl Scouts, and generally do anything else that girls might do.
