Innate homophobia. The worst thing a guy like this could ever be is gay, or perceived by others even momentarily, to be gay. And being “fooled” by a trans person whose genitals don’t match their gender expression cannot possibly be a matter of genitalia not being the be-all-and-end-all of gender, it must only be a sign of some lurking homosexual tendencies. (Or the most devious and despicable act of deception in the history of the world, hence “trans panic” murders. RIP Angie Zapata, etc.) But the idea that there may be a kernel of gayness lurking within that caused such a guy to be attracted to a pre/non-op trans woman would be the biggest blow to his self-identity possible. Just absolutely unacceptable to a tiny mind.
Of course, when we unpack homophobia at its core we often find a huge ball of misogyny as well; gay men are effeminate and womanly and being a woman or like a woman is being something inferior, etc. And a “man” who “wants” to be a woman is inferior and wrong and bad and a freak (see, once again, the recorded evidence in the Angie Zapata case) and in the worst cases not something which should be suffered to live.
Someone said that gender is “one of the basic things you ask” about someone. It really ought not be. People need to stop thinking about it as a matter of their business, honestly. It freaks me out that the first thing people ask about a brand new, not even on the planet 24 hours child is “what flavor genitalia does it have?” How is that really ever anyone else’s concern. There’s a booming business to this day in tape-on hair bows, sold for no reason other than making sure that no one think that a child too young to sit up by itself has a penis. This stuff has to stop.
Also, we need to stop referring to “transgendereds.” It’s transgender people, or just trans people. Transgendered is not a noun. It is more acceptable in polite discussion than “coloreds.”
I wouldn’t let my pre-operative transgender daughter change clothes with other girls for any reason, because I know the extraordinary body tyranny girls visit upon one another when there aren’t extreme body type differences. (I’m of the belief that no child in school should ever be forced to change clothes where other people can see them, though.)
Girls only sleepovers sure, if I felt assured that the other parents were accepting and could arrange for my daughter’s privacy to change and use the restroom. And if the Girl Scouts had an accepting leader and my daughter wanted that experience, yes. (On the other hand, no child of mine of any gender expression/identity will ever have anything to do with the Boy Scouts of America, who can sit and spin and take their nasty microwave popcorn with them.)
Are we so sure about that. I know a disproportionate number (more than a half dozen) of FTM people intimately enough to discuss their health issues with them in depth. Each and every single one of them reports gynecological problems far beyond what cisgendered women would ever consider normal or everyday. This is well beyond garden variety cramps and bloating, pop a Midol and get on with life level stuff. Nor is it the cognitive and emotional dissonance of and the psychological upset that follows from being a man and yet having a menstual cycle.
I’m talking about severe ovulatory pain (keeping in mind that most cisgendered women have no physical awareness of ovulation) as well as several days of debilitating cramping and dangerously heavy bleeding, often with other physical upsets (typically digestive/bowel issues) and ongoing problems like anemia, that go along. To a man, each one deals with this on some level, mirroring things that I’ve experienced as a cisgendered woman with both PCOS and endometriosis, but none have been diagnosed as having either ailment, nor anything to justify their experience nor any particular commonality between them save the fact that they’re all transmen.
I don’t have the experience you have. I know only one pre-op F-to-M from my high school days in the early 70s. The subject was pretty much untouchable back then. There were no straight discussions about it.
I saw the documentary Southern Comfort, which touched on the problems trans men have in getting gynecological care at all. I wasn’t aware that they had the additional problems you mention here. Thanks for that info. However, I was referring more to the “pass” aspect of transitioning, basically being that you can’t turn back the clock on some visible features that are considered male for M-to-F, but F-to-M seems to more completely erase the appearance of the former gender. In another documentary I saw, females who transitioned to male anatomy were virtually unrecognizable as former female bodies. Unfortunately, many M-to-F transitions don’t go nearly so well.
Thanks, jayjay. Do FtM transsexuals ovulate? I thought the ovaries and uterus would have been removed as well. And wouldn’t testosterone suppress ovulation?
FtM transsexuals typically take testosterone for a while before having any surgery, including hysterectomy and oophorectomy. Testosterone usually suppresses ovulation quickly, but the ovaries and uterus can remain viable, and ovarian function can return if testosterone therapy is discontinued before the ovaries are removed (cf Thomas Beatie, an FTM who discontinued hormone therapy in order to become pregnant when his biologically female wife could not).
As long one has these organs, one has to obtain appropriate medical care. This can get a little weird, because many FtMs only have the uterus, cervix, and ovaries removed, leaving the vagina intact. So the FtM and/or his doctor has to remember to do periodic vaginal pap smears to monitor for vaginal cancer, same as for any other biological female who’s had a hysterectomy/oophorectomy.
I seem to recall one of the transgendered Dopers mentioning that she must continue to get prostate exams as well as more typical for women gynecological exams due to her still possessing a prostate (as prostate removal can cause all sorts of complications like incontinence and nerve damage I can only presume removing them during MtF surgeries is not normally done). Also something about her doctor admonishing her that “your prostate health is nothing to take lightly, young lady!” or some such. But I’ll let her speak for herself beyond that - though I wouldn’t blame any transgendered person for avoiding this thread entirely.
What about breasts? I’d think that a female bodied person who identifies as a man would prefer not to go through that part of puberty. It’s also hard to look good as a guy if you’ve got obvious breasts. Many FtMs eventually wind up having a double mastectomy, but it must be a lot easier to just never develop breasts in the first place.
I still can’t help but think that this whole thing is political correctness gone crazy. If if I thought I was a horse, and truly wanted to be a horse, that doesn’t make it so, and no amount of encouragement by my friends and family, surgeries or false manes would make me a horse. No philosophical discussion about how just because I am genetically a human being, I can still be a horse in spirit or in some other abstract sense, will make me a horse.
The only thing is that longing to be a horse is not in favor with the elites, so if that were the case, the mental health professionals would have me locked in one of those rooms with a doorknob on one side only. But since destroying gender roles and identities is en vogue nowadays, then these people don’t get the mental help that they need…
There are behavorial differences even in infancy between the average boy and the average girl. It could be that since a very young age the child has favored gentle play over rougher types (peek a boo vs. play wrestling, as two examples though there are many others).
And why would you? This country has very strict laws regarding medical privacy, including therapy and counseling. For all we know this child might, indeed, have some sort of chromosome anamoly or ambiguity in physical body and unless the parents (or, later, the child) divulged this information we’d have no way of knowing. Or this person could have a very normal male body. We just don’t know. And, in fact, it is none of our business.
Why? Because she has come to a conclusion YOU think is wrong based YOUR religious beliefs? If she said tomorrow she was a boy would you then think the child is certain about his/her feelings? Why?
Funny - I’m in my mid-40’s and can honestly say nope, never had a homosexual desire, dream, fantasy, urge, or feeling. Once in awhile I feel … awkward about it. I mean, I’m only capable of an intimate physical relationship with half the human race instead of all of it. I’ve had homosexual and bisexual friends who have expressed an interest in such a relationship but I simply can’t reciprocate and politely decline. Maybe I’m just a freak of nature.
I have trouble with the idea anyone could tell a transexual person that what they experience/go through is “normal”. It’s not. The vast majority of the human race doesn’t go through anything like that. It’s not normal, no more than being born missing a limb is normal. Fortunately, modern technology can enable a child born without a leg to walk, run, play games, and function much closer to normal than in the past. Likewise, the end goal of transexual transition (which, it seems to me, encompasses far more than just surgery) is to enable someone in an abnormal situation to function more normally and be in much better circumstances than he or she would be without such treatment.
You don’t come off as “hating” them in the sense you wish them delibrate harm - but you do come off as ignorance, misinformed, and a bigot.
When my mother was a child she was told she was wrong for “choosing” to be left handed, at times even hit for doing things with her left hand, and punished for her stubborness. We now know that people who are left handed are left handed because of a physical difference in brain structure, which fact in mother’s case was confirmed when she had a stroke and subsequent medical testing demonstrated that her brain structure was a mirror-image of the typical right-handed person’s brain structure.
I suspect that something simliar, but harder to see, is going on with transgender people. On the other hand, I also admit this is my opinion and don’t try to support it with the writings of a bunch of desert nomads from 5,000 years ago.
I read things like the above and think… thank Goddess I’m not Christian…
But then I remind myself that’s really unfair to my many Christian friends who have a healthy and sane attitude towards “carnal desires”.
OK… you do realize not everyone in the world is Christian, yes?
So… God created man as male and female? Together? One body? Everyone started out as hermaphrodites? Or didn’t you realize that that could be read in that manner?
So? I’m not a Muslim, either.
Frankly, I have far more faith in science than any book of myths. And… even if you are a mind stuck in the wrong gender of body just suck it up and be miserable because God wants your life to suck?
I am so glad I don’t share your religion…
I think transgendered people are all too painfully aware that they are not “naturally” in body the gender they are in mind. I think they are aware of it far more intensely than I can ever comprehend. Transexual transition treatments are not a perfect solution to a difficult problem, just the best we have come up with so far.
Excuse me? Women are not a “gift” to men. They are not a physical object handed to men for their gratification. They are human beings in their own right.
Well, this guy doesn’t think he’s a horse… but is he an example of what you mean?
It’s… unusual (to say the least) but if he’s not a danger to himself or others I honestly can’t see a valid reason to stop him. OK, it’s weird but it’s his life, not mine, and if it makes him happier who am I to argue?