He claims, and I agree, that pretty much every religion worth mentioning shares the characteristics as the big three.
Am I talkin’ to the wall here? Go read the book I recommended.
There is an important distinction to be made between what religion is and how it actually manifests in the real world. I would not label religion per se as “a con game,” but I will not deny that the nature of its philosophical basis does tend to attract con artists. Rather a significant difference, I think.
Not true. Why must you engage in blatant revisionism?
What he claimed is that all religions are “con games.” He did not say “every religion worth mentioning.” Do you see the goalposts sliding?
And BTW, neither one of you has demonstrated that the big three religions are indeed “con games.” Heck, you haven’t provided evidence that ANY religions are indeed deliberate deceptions. (FTR, I do believe that some of them are… but in this thread, you have not provided any evidence to that effect.)
What you and Clothahump have done is repeat your assertions, sometimes at great length, and sometimes with great emotion. Verbiage and pathos have their place, but they are no substitute for evidence or proof.
Look, do you really want us to take every single religion out of a dictionary of religions, and point to a reason why each and every religion is crap? I can do it, but I don’t want to take up all the server’s memory.
I’m sorry, Cervaise, I meant to respond last night, and somehow spaced it. I’ve read it, and enjoyed it very much. Many of the arguments it presents are the reasons I consider myself a religious humanist these days.
Significant as all hell, and definitely not one I’d argue against.
You’re the one who claimed to have established, via “inductive reasoning,” that every single religion on earth is a “con game.” Not merely “crap,” but a deliberate deception. (See how you’re moving the goalposts again?)
Now it appears as though you can’t even list all the religions in the world. If you’re unable to defend your point, why should we believe that your conclusion has merit?
Nope. I am not moving the goal posts, but holding to both ideas. Fine then, you want a list? Here is a list of many of them:
Asatru (Norse Paganism)
Baha’i Faith
Buddhism
Christianity
Confucianism
Druidism
Hinduism
Islam
Jainism
Judaism
Scienwhatsit
Shinto
Voodoo
Wicca
Witchcraft
Zoroastrianism
I can disect all in great detail, but I do have a life, you know.All of them promise pie in the sky, by and by. I call that bullcrap. All of them have priests who profit off of the followers. As Clothahump has said, “It’s all about money, it’s all about power.”
Keep going. Remember, you said that ALL religions are deliberate scams. (Not just “crap,” as you later claimed.) So clearly, the first step is to list every single extant religion in the world – not just “many of them.”
And don’t forget, you still have to demonstrate that each and every one of these is indeed a deliberate scam. I think you have your work cut out for you.
It’ll be interesting to see what you come up with.
, or tax the hampsters. Please, won’t someone think of the hampsters?
Yet earlier, you complained about the amount of effort it would take to prove that all religions are “crap.” Since that wasn’t the assertion under debate, one wonders why you decided to change topics so suddenly.
As I said, moving goalposts.
It is not changing issues, but simply a fact I was mentioning, in addition to what I was already saying. Do you have reading comprehension problems? :dubious: And it isn’t “hard”, but simply time consuming.
Psst… they hate it when you spell their name wrong. Makes them eat your posts more often. 
Nonsense. Your exact words were,
“Look, do you really want us to take every single religion out of a dictionary of religions, and point to a reason why each and every religion is crap?”
Obviously, you were not merely mentioning this in passing. Rather, you were complaining about being asked to defend that claim – even though it was NOIT the subject under discussion.
But if you think you’ll save face by saying that you only brought it up in passing, then go for it.
Again, either you have reading comprehension problems, or you are viewing my posts through blinders. Do you understand what a question mark is? That wasn’t a complaint, that was a question, and one which has already been answered. Fine then, if the fact that all religions operation one the same princibles isn’t enough for you, list them. You set them up, and I will knock them down. Here are a few, to start with. 3H0: See Healthy, Happy, and Holy.
7 Habits of Highly Effective People: A book by Stephen Covey.
Aaronic Order, Maurice Glendenning, Murry, UT: Splinter group from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS), founded in 1942 by Glendenning after he was excommunicated by the LDS Church for receiving and publishing revelations later known as the Levitical Writings.
Abaddon: (Hebrew for “The Destroyer”; in Greek, Apollyon) A demon described in the Bible as “the angel of the bottomless pit” (Revelation 9:11).
Abbey of Thelema, Old Greenwich, CT: Esoteric magic, teachings of Aleister Crowley.
Abode of the Message, Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan, New Lebanon, NY: Sufism, alchemy, dowsing, meditation to lead to “inner attunement,” Native American spirituality, sweat lodge.
Academy for Guided Imagery, Martin L. Rossman & David E. Bresler, Mill Valley, CA: Healing by altered states of consciousness, imagery training (i.e., visualization), hypnosis and magic.
Academy of Religion and Psychical Research, Evanston, IL: Organization founded in 1956 to explore psychic occurrences and metaphysical experiences while evaluating the growing interest in occult phenomena in Christian churches. See Spiritual Frontiers Fellowship, Spiritualism, Divination.
Actualism: New Age teaching based on panentheism, according to which all human beings possess the divine Christ-consciousness and are united with the Mother-Father-Creator God.
Acupressure: See Acupuncture.
Acupuncture: Chinese system of healing using needles or hand pressure (acupressure) applied to certain points on the body, traditionally believed to balance the yin and yang energies in the body by opening blocked meridians (apexes in the pathways). Once the chakras (key points or intersections) are open, the chi, or energy, supposedly can then flow through the body bringing all things into harmony. While some limited physical effects (mostly anesthetic) can be attributed to this practice, these effects have scientific, physiological explanations totally unrelated to the mystical explanation, which derives from Taoism. See Holistic Health. Profile available.
Adams, Dennis, Mt. Shasta, CA: New Age, man is God.
Adelphi Organization, Dallas, TX: New Age teachings on Atlantis, karma, seven planes of existence. See Stelle Group.
Adeptco, Chuck McDonald, Omaha, NE: Yoga, crystals, reincarnation, karma and Kabbalah teachings.
Advanced Organization of Los Angeles (AOLA): Promotes Scientology philosophy.
Advanced Systems, Inc.: See Zen Master Rama.
Adventism: Widespread trans-denominational movement inspired by William Miller’s prediction that Jesus’ “advent” (return) would take place in 1844. Even after the Great Disappointment (the date’s failure), many people in the movement continued to believe. Some suggested revised chronologies and new dates, eventually forming groups such as the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Others, notably Hiram Edson and Ellen G. White, suggested that the 1844 date was accurate but that a heavenly (thus invisible) event had taken place. Their teachings became the basis of Seventh-day Adventism, which eventually spawned its own offshoots, including Armstrongism and the Branch Davidians.
Aesthetic Realism Foundation, Eli Seigel, New York: Happiness can be achieved through the harmony of opposites, e.g., realizing and accepting that the world is both beautiful and horrific (see Taoism). Educators have criticized the Foundation after public school teachers in New York introduced the philosophy into high school English, biology, and art courses.
Aetherius Society, Sir George King: Clairvoyance, karma, reincarnation, psychometry, Great White Brotherhood, UFOs, alchemy, occult secrets of Jesus, mantras.
Affective Education: Also called value-free, or non-directive, education. Influenced by the philosophy of Carl Rogers, affective education programs attempt to facilitate the emotional development of children in order to enhance the learning process, particularly focusing on self-esteem. This contrasts with traditional educational paradigms that focus on cognitive, or intellectual, practices such as reading, writing, and arithmetic. Affective education has become particularly influential in drug awareness programs for youth.
Agasha Temple of Wisdom, William Eisen, Los Angeles, CA: Universal consciousness of god, reincarnation, occult pyramidology, Ascended Masters.
Agnosticism: The claim (denied by Romans 1:18–20) that one has no knowledge of God or the origin of the universe. Some agnostics make the claim on a personal level, while allowing that such knowledge may exist but has never been known by themselves. Others assert that such knowledge cannot be had by anyone. Agnostics avoid the charge of dogmatic atheism by acknowledging the theoretical possibility of God’s existence. Yet virtually all live as if the non-existence of God was an established fact, and are thus practical atheists.
Agon Buddhism: Sect of Buddhism. Uses the Agon Sutras as scriptures.
Agyeman, Jaramogi Abebe: See Pan African Orthodox Christian Church.
Ahabah Asah Prophetic Ministries: See Gatekeepers.
Ahmadiyya Movement: Sect of Islam following the teachings of Ahmad (1835-1908), an Indian Muslim; most followers in the US are black, Indian, or Pakistani.
AION: Magic, runes, goddess worship.
Akashic Records: Term used in theosophy designating an alleged library that exists on the astral plane containing all the thoughts, actions, and events of mankind. Mystics, through altered states of consciousness, tune into this library for information.
Alamo Christian Foundation: Tony Alamo, leader of this group, has been imprisoned by authorities for alleged illegal activities. Teaches traditional Christianity is dead. Former followers have reported deplorable living conditions, mind control, and slave labor. Operates Music Square Church in TN, Holiness Tabernacle in Dyer, AR, and End Times Book is the publishing arm.
Alan Shawn Feinstein Association, Cranston, RI: UFOs, contactee.
Alchemy: In its original, literal meaning, theories and experiments involving the transmutation (dissolving and combining) of base metals to form gold though chemical and/or supernatural processes. Today, it caries the meaning of a mystical transformation in New Age consciousness through various mystical techniques.
Aleph: New name adopted by Japanese doomsday-cult Aum Shinri Kyo January 18, 2000.
Aleph: Alliance for Jewish Renewal, Rabbi Zalman Schachter-Shalomi, Philadelphia, PA: Combines Chassidic Judaism, Native American spirituality, Eastern mysticism, A Course in Miracles, and New Age practices. Emphasizes combining syncretistic spirituality and psychology.
Aletheia Psycho-Physical Foundation, Jack Schwarz, Ashland, OR: New Age seminars on the inner-self, paraconsciousness, meditation and visualization.
All-One-God-Faith, Emanuel H. Bronner, Escondido, CA: Sells Dr. Bronner’s Magic Soap, which claims to clean both body and soul. The soap is widely available in health-food stores. Teaches (like Process Theology) that God is continually recreating Himself. God desires all nations and religions to unite in an “All-One-God-Faith” on Spaceship Earth. This unification will come about through following 13 precepts and 20 directives revealed to Bronner by God.
All Souls Unitarian Church, John Wolf, Tulsa, OK: See Unitarian-Universalist Association for similar theological perspective.
All Ways Free, Madison, WI: New Age periodical.
Allah: Arabic, Muslim name for God; see Islam.
Allegro, John: Wrote The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.
Alphabiotic New Life Center, Dallas, TX: New Age seminars on one’s divine being, Ramtha, yoga and channeling.
Alphasonic International, Los Angeles, CA: Company specializing in tapes with subliminal messages.
Altered States of Consciousness: Trances entered through hypnosis, meditation, drugs (including hallucinogenics), visualization, etc. State of being in which one allows the subconscious to take control and guide. May heighten one’s vulnerability to suggestion or susceptibility to deception.
Alternative Medicine: See Holistic Health.
Amalgamated Flying Saucer Clubs of America: See Mon-Ka Retreat…
Ambassador University, Big Sandy, TX: Now defunct Liberal arts and religious institution founded by Herbert Armstrong. See Armstrongism.
Ambassadors For Christ, Tustin, CA: See Watchtower Bible and Tract Society for similar theological perspective.
Ameba, San Francisco, CA: Paganism, promotes the teachings of Aleister Crowley, Celtic rituals.
American Academy of Dissident Sciences, Culver City, CA: Studying a wide array of conspiracy theories, the Academy focuses on UFOs and the Illuminati.
American Association of Ayurvedic Medicine, Fairfield, IA: Holistic health association founded by Deepak Chopra while he followed the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi (see Ayurvedic medicine; Transcendental Meditation).
American Babaji Yoga Sangam, New York, NY: Hinduism-based philosophy, yoga.
American Constitution Committee: Political organization of the Unification Church.
American Fellowship Services: Splinter group of The Way International.
American Foundation for the Science of Creative Intelligence: A branch of Transcendental Meditation.
American Gnostic Church, Daeva Ares Animo: Paganism, Kabbalah rituals, Egyptian magic, Satanism rituals of Anton LaVey, Gnostic Mass.
American Holistic Nurses Association, Amherst, MA: Trains medical nurses to use therapeutic touch and meditation with patients.
American Imagery Institute, Milwaukee, WI: New Age teachings on visualization, astral projection.
American Leadership College, Inc. Osceola, IA: New Age/occult teachings on trance healings, mediumship, self-realization dreams.
American Pie and the Armageddon Bible Prophecy Home Page: The pop song American Pie, which prophesies the destruction of America, was foretold in the Song of Moses in Deuteronomy 32. See Apocalypse.
American Society for Psychical Research, Simon Newcomb, New York, NY: ESP, out-of-body experiences, mediums, parapsychology, psychokinesis.
American Study Group, UT: Defunct splinter group from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) that used the Book of Mormon and the teachings of LDS leaders to speculate on end-time events.
American Temple, Michael Whitney, Portland, OR: A “fourth wave” esoteric and mystical order led by “Patriarch” Michael Whitney reviving the doctrines of the now defunct Holy Order of MANS.
American West Publishers, Tehachapi, CA: UFOs, cosmic laws of balance. Publishes the Phoenix Journal.
American Zen Center: Zen Buddhism, shamanism, Sufism.
AMOM: See Ancient Mystic Order of Malchizedek.
AMOOKOS: Occult, magic, some Hinduism, man is already a master.
AMORC: See Rosicrucian Order.
Ananda Marga, Denver, CO: Philosophy and deities of Hinduism, teaches meditation and yoga.
Anchor of Golden Light, Dorothy and Henry Leon, Grants Pass, OR: UFOs, Ascended Masters, Kabbalah mysticism, alchemy, numerology. Publishes the Anchor of Golden Light newsletter.
Ancient Mystic Order of Malchizedek, Malachi Z. York, Eatonton, GA: Also known as AMOM, Nuwaubians, the Nubian Nation of Moors, Right Knowledge. A UFO group whose leader, (a.k.a. Dwight York) claims to be form the 19th galaxy, called Illyuwn. A 1993 FBI report calls the group a “front for a wide range of criminal activity, including arson, welfare fraud and extortion.” York’s group has also operated under other names and organizations including the Nubian Islaamic [sic] Hebrew Mission, the Ansaaru Allah Community, (an Islamic sect with doctrines similar to Nation of Islam), and the Original Tents of Kedar.
Ancient Wisdom Connection, N. Myrtle Beach, SC: New Age channeling, numerology and belief in “Lord Sananda,” who is an incarnation of Jesus.
Angels: Supernatural, non-human beings created by God. Angels worship God and serve as His messengers. The angels who followed Satan and rebelled against God are called demons.
Anglo-Israelism: See British Israelism.
Animal Magnetism: See Mesmerism.
Animism: The idea that all things in the universe are inherently invested with a life force, soul, or mind. This belief is an important component of many primitive religions, the occult, and spiritism.
Annihilationism: Taught by most Adventist groups, including the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, this doctrine denies the conscious, eternal punishment of the lost. Instead, humans who do not receive eternal life will be destroyed and cease to exist.
Anointed Class: See Little Flock.
Answers Research and Education, Bud Cocherell, San Jose, CA: Man’s destiny is to become a God, keep Old Testament festivals.
Anthropomancy: A form of divination based on psychic readings of the entrails of a human who has been ritualistically sacrificed.
Anthroposophic Society, Rudolf Steiner, Hudson, NY: Similar to the Chicago organization (below), possibly affiliated.
Anthroposophical Society, Rudolf Steiner, Chicago, IL: Occult, related to Theosophy; teachings on karma, meditation, Atlantis and reincarnation.
Apocalypse: Also called Armageddon. From the Greek word apokalypsis, meaning “revelation, disclosure, or unveiling,” the term apocalypse refers in the Bible to the summation of human history through God’s direct judgment upon the world. Central in biblical apocalyptic literature is the Revelation to John (sometimes called The Apocalypse). A common feature of many pseudo-Christian groups is their attempts to predict the date of the apocalypse. For examples of groups that have falsely predicted the apocalypse, see Church of the Living Stone Mission for the Coming Days, Adventism, Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.
Apostasy: From the Greek word apostasis, meaning “rebellion,” and the Latin word apostasia, meaning “abandonment,” the term apostasy refers to a renunciation of the Christian faith. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society applies the label apostate to former Jehovah’s Witnesses, who are then shunned by all Witnesses in good standing.
And I mean that literally.
You guys really know how to take what might be an interesting subject and beat the crap out of it until it’s just diarrhea.
**
Jthunder** try to grasp the point they’re making instead of nit picking the details. I agree with you that the statement is ridiculously broad and inclusive. Anyone can see that.
The subject and the point is actually interesting. I usually dismiss Clothahump and Scott when they make their ridiculous sweeping and sarcastic comments.
Now that Cloth has taken the time to tell his story and explain his point I think it’s a valid, although, exagerated one.
Certainly it’s easy to see that most if not all of the major religions grew based in large part on leaders wanting to profit or control others. A study of the history of christianity reveals that right away. The introduction of ideas from pagen religions into the life of Jesus. There a part in the NT where a couple is killed for not telling God the truth about how much money they got for selling their land. Read Leviticus and you’ll see how the priests used the concept of offerings to get the people to bring them goodies. Look at Joseph Smith and the history of the Latter Day Saints.
Paul Twitchell started Eckenkar here in the US based on a little known sect from India.
The con game is perpertrated on those fearing death and looking for someone to tell them what to believe.
Does that mean all religion is meaningless? Nope
Does that mean people that hold spiritual beliefs are all gullible fools? Again, no.
Does the history and presence of these charlatans remove all validity from the spiritual quest. Not at all.
Here’s the part I like. Spiritual growth is done internally and uniquely for each individual. Truth is where I find it and the source or the manner of offering is irrelevant. If I read a book by Twitchell that he copied from some other source I can still find meaning and value in it.
The charlatans have brought a lot of good people into religion who in turn accomplish a lot of postive things. Do you think the folks being fed by the salvation army give a rats ass about Cloth’s attitude?
No problem. It’s not a very popular viewpoint, as you might imagine. I denied it for years. But as I kept reading, the evidence became too overwhelming and I finally had to give in and accept the fact that it was all a scam.
That would have been too cool. I wonder if we will ever have a Jon-Tom?
Thunder, it’s for a very real, practical reason. I’m frankly tired of people blowing me off because they don’t like what I say. It boils down to this - if you don’t find it out for yourself, you’ll never believe it. As I mentioned to someone else, I didn’t believe it for years, but as I kept reading, eventually the evidence was overwhelming.
Now, you may agree or disagree, I don’t care which. But I have explained how and why I say what I do. If you don’t like my explanation, then go look it up for yourself. If you’re not willing to do that, then please stop with the nitpicky bs about how I haven’t looked at every single religion, etc.
I think you make a valid point. It is the all inclusive scope of your starement that puts people off. {As if you didn’t know}
The fact that scam artists exist in abundance in religion, or even that a scam artist starts his own religion, doesn’t mean that is the only facet of that religion. It doesn’t preclude the positive effects of religion.
And obviously, successful religions provide explanations about existence to their adherence.
If you make a claim – especially one as overly broad as this – it’s reasonable for people to ask for substantiation. And if you can’t substantiate that claim (or refuse to), then it’s reasonable for people to dismiss your assertion.
Nonsense. People believe what others say all the time. In fact, isn’t that one of the most common criticisms that skeptics levy toward believers – their willingness to believe what other people say?
I don’t think anyone here is dismissing your claim merely because “they don’t like what [you] say.” By all indications, they are being dismissive because you haven’t provided a single iota of evidence for it. Instead, all your statements boil down to asserting “Some religions are scams!” (again, without evidence) and stating “Do the research yourself, dammit!”