I used to wonder why using metal pans on an electric hob heating ring didn’t give me a shock. I was told that the heating elements are encased in an (electrical) insulator. If this is true(?) aren’t the heating elements in a toaster encased in something similar?
Try to read for content. Thanks.
As I mentioned, if our intrepid toast-retriever is not grounded, there is no chance of electric shock in this situation. We’re in complete agreement here.
One thing to add to the fun, ssuming an old school toaster without benefit of a insulated body and polarized plug there is a 50/50 chance of being “hot” relative to ground, (depending on which way it’s plugged in) and also depending whether the unit happens to be ON, or OFF. It is possible to be shocked even when OFF, on a “hot chassis” design. Even a polarized plug is not proof against electric shock, mainly because it is not uncommon for wall outlets to be incorrectly wired. Hope this helps.
If this is true for the US does it also apply in England? I think we use a different type of current than you guys. Don’t worry, whatever the answer I have no plans to experiment, I’ve always had too healthy a respect for electricity.
Actually that last bit isn’t quite true. When I was in my 20s my friends and I, if we were short a plug on an appliance, would wrap the bare wires around the plug prongs of a second appliance, thus making both work with one plug. Not sure how dangerous it was but I wouldn’t do it now.
It doesn’t necessarily need to be turned on (to get a shock) this is a common misconception with old school electrical appliances. Depends how it is wired. There’s a 50/50 chance the heating element could be “hot” with respect to ground, depending on which way the plug is installed in the outlet. In fact with things like radios, the chassis is almost always “hot” when off, as the hum and distortion level will be lower. Simply installing a polarized plug will not “fix” household appliances with respect to electrical safety as we understand the term today. Another common misconception.
It’s easy to slip over the line into silliness here. Household 120 AC is not likely to kill anyone, unless you do something really stupid. It can be done, make no mistake.
Face it, Moms worry excessively, that’s their job!
I’m not sure they had those in 1936, the backs were usually open. Transformer sets. By the 50s they had these “safety interlock” integral plugs with the back to prevent risk of shock. The AC/DC “hot chassis” design was very common as it was inexpensive, as there was no transformer. These are “dangerous” in the sense that any contact with the metal chassis and ground at the same time, could result in a jolt. But again, there’s a 50/50 chance, depending on which way the plug is inserted into the outlet. The instructions would usually say something like “if excessive hum is present on stations, flip the plug in the outlet.”
So what happens, when the radio is switched OFF, the metal portions of the chassis (and volume control… if the knobs are missing…) external screws etc., are now “hot” relative to ground. Again, lots of folks think they can simply install a polarized plug and render an older appliance “safe”. It doesn’t work that way. The radios had capacitors across the line to limit the current one could receive, but it will still get your attention.
I’ve been shocked pretty good on several occasions, twice off a 220v line. Working in food service exposes you to interesting dangers.
Now, I am sure that it will kill you if you are stupid or unlucky, if you are in a bathtub full of water and drop the toaster in without a GFCI (supposedly, with a GFCI, this is safe, but I am not going to try it), but just contacting the wires is most likely not going to really hurt you much. (Don’t try this at home!)
I’d be more worried about it starting a fire, wired up that way, than getting a shock.
My grandparents had an old radio, don’t know if it was that old, if I had to guess, I’d say late 40’s, maybe 50’s. Whenever it was on, if you touched it you got, not a shock, but a bit too intense to call a tingle either.
Yep, the slight tingle means it’s “hot” relative to ground, but the observer isn’t very well grounded. That’s a good thing in this instance. The voltage will measure 120 AC, say, but is current limited by capacitors across the line. It has to do with the way the power switch is wired. Manufacturers used the metal chassis as a shield to reduce hum. If you would have flipped the plug in the outlet, the situation would have been reversed.
I delivered mail one summer years ago and was astonished when I got zapped when I leaned on the metal railing of a house putting mail in the box, the house had aluminum siding. Near as I could figure out, some idiot had wired the porch light, and the aluminum siding was hot, and the concrete porch and railing was of course an excellent ground. I let the nice lady know she should probably have an electrician check that out. She decided “we’ll just keep that light off.” Hm.
The heating element in stoves and toaster ovens, and heating rings like what you used, are typically something like nichrome wire with an electrical insulator around it.
Toasters typically have bare nichrome wire heating elements with no electrical insulation whatsoever around them.
I looked at a couple wiring diagrams for toasters. Each used a DPST switch for the power/plunger switch. Which means that, even with an un-polarized plug, everything inside the toaster is de-energized when the toaster is off. I would assume most (all?) toasters: a) use a polarized plug, or b) use non-polarized plug and a DPST switch for the power/plunger switch, or c) use a polarized plug and a DPST switch for the power/plunger switch.
So let’s talk about grounding.
For most U.S. devices and appliances with a metal chassis, the chassis is connected to ground via the “third prong” on the plug. This is for safety; if a conductor inside the device somehow came in contact with the chassis, and the chassis was not connected to ground, the chassis will have a voltage on it relative to ground. Perhaps as high as 120 VAC.
There are some exceptions to this, though. As an example, I have some big, heavy, audio power amplifiers with metal chassis. The chassis are not connected to ground. (Each uses a two-prong plug on the power cord.) I am not sure how they’re able to get away with not grounding the chassis, but I am guessing they’re designed in such a way that the electronics and wiring are “far removed” from the chassis.
And then there is the toaster. Common sense would tell you that a toaster’s metal chassis should be grounded. After all, what if one of the nichrome wires broke and made contact with the chassis? The chassis would be a shock hazard if it weren’t grounded. But while this is certainly a possibility, consumer safety folks have also contemplated on a much more likely scenario: what happens when a person sticks a knife (or whatever) down into a toaster that is still on? If the chassis is grounded, there could be arcs-n-sparks due to the knife creating a short between the nichrome wires and chassis, which will inevitably happen. (Or maybe not - it depends on where the knife makes contact on the nichrome wire. More than likely, the wire will simply get super hot and burn out. But still, not a good thing.) And if the knife comes in contact with a nichrome wire and somehow does not touch the chassis, the situation is even worse; you will receive a shock because your other hand is likely touching the (grounded) chassis. Due to these issues, a decision was made a long time ago to not connect a toaster’s chassis to ground.
You have the same kind of power the USA does for all important purposes like self electrocution. AC current.
You appear to use
240VAC
50Hz so your teeth chatter a bit slower when you clamp down on it.
Single leg, so all wiring is 240v, So yea your toaster gives a bigger bang for the buck
US Uses
220/240VAC
60Hz so a blokes teeth vibrate a bit faster.
2 Leg, 120VAC on each leg. Which can be bridged for where 220vac is needed.
If you poke your tongue in the lamp socket, you can not taste the difference between London or New York.
So… Poetic. Love it!
I may be a bit off in the years, but i have some nifty old hot chassis radios, work well and all, but god help you should your fingers investigate the vicinity of the frame.
I did render a larger one “Safe” which consisted of completely rewiring it, and asking a lot of questions along the way, the smaller ones haven’t the room inside the case, so the cords got rolled up inside the case behind the cover and they are decorations.
I remember trying to put some connections on the big one for an external shortwave antenna, it was a hair raising and shocking experience.
It’s worth reminding folks that “grounded” is not a binary state.
There is always some certain resistance between your fingers and ground. It might be a small value and we call that “grounded”. It might be a very large value and we call that “insulated” or more accurately, “isolated”. It might also be an intermediate value where the resistance is high enough to reduce the intensity of shock enough that it’s still feelable, but unlikely to be injury-producing. Or anything in between.
Also, as Beowulff mostly said, there are lots of ways for people to change their degree of grounding from moment to moment while moving naturally around in a kitchen.
We do a disservice to the amatuers when we indirectly suggest that unless they’re deliberately grabbing a big obvious piece of cold metal that they’re totally isolated and totally safe. IMO that’s not really the safety picture they ought to be carrying around. Far better for them to think of themselves as always grounded at least partially if not completely and hence their goal is to absolutely avoid contact with hot wires, hot chassis, etc.
Now you are just taking advantage 
So it’s okay to use wood as a tool to remove toast from a toaster?
I use a bamboo skewer that I keep next to the toaster. My husband says bamboo was used as the first filament in light bulbs and ought to conduct electricity very efficiently, so it’s just as dangerous to use as metal.
Edison experimented with bamboo fibers mixed with metal alloys, but bamboo by itself should not be an issue. The only corrorraly is that it’s not soaking wet.
Wood (bamboo too) should be a decent enough insulator for toaster purposes.
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Corollary. I swear autocorrect did that, or at least spell check was mute.
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Well, I just stick the knife in it. But I do peer into the slot and look carefully at where I’m putting it. It seems to me that a toaster slot is wide enough to easily probe around in it and only poke the bagel or whatever without touching the heater elements. Or the metal chassis, come to that … the outside case of my toaster is plastic, so I can rest the knife on the case as a fulcrum point if I like.
Carbonized bamboo. The first successful filament.
Normal bamboo chopsticks should be fine.
BUT: the easy thing is just to unplug the toaster first!