I don’t know what Sheen has said and I’m not following mainstream media to know what this is all about.
Your question about AA is an indirect statement that you are not making.
AA is trying to deal with the behavior of individuals that are consuming alcohol and cause undesirable and destructive effects on their own and their families’ lives. Being a volunteer organization, if it prevented one out of 1,000 people from causing irreparable damage to themselves or their families, then their success rate would be commendable enough.
As I said, I am bewildered by people who get angry at AA. What on Earth is there to get angry AT?
Here you have a bunch of people who have tried and failed repeatedly to handle their alcohol addiction on their own, and have found that if they get together with other people who are like them, a funny thing happens.
We find that the other alcoholics understand the torments and demons that assail us inside and lead us to be miserable and to seek escape inside the bottle. And experience has shown us that even the best-intentioned non-alcoholic, even the most learned psychiatrist, do not really have a gut understanding of what we feel (unless they are alcoholics as well).
We discover that this regular contact and discussion with other alcoholics gives us the strength to stop drinking and to face our demons, fears and torments. Contrary to popular opinion, we do not sit around crying “I wish I had a cold beer!”
At each meeting, people report their experiences, how they faced up to problems, resentments, anger, fear, anxiety, etc. without drinking. Nobody interrupts anyone. You just keep quiet while the others are talking and then jump in with what you have to say, if you want to talk. Other times you listen to a speaker talk about his drinking and receovery. Then you go home, with your fears, torments and demons under control for the next little while. You live one day at a time and stay sober one day at a time.
We know for a fact that in every meeting there are people who have 5, 10, 20, 30 years of sobriety under their belts. We know that some people show up for a few meetings and then we never see them again. We have no idea what has happened to them, but if they want to come back, they are welcome anytime, no questions asked.
We meet in church basements and community halls that we can rent cheaply, and we offer free coffee and maybe cookies if someone brings a bag. This is paid for by 100% voluntary donations of the members. No dues of fees or any records of who gave how much. Some people like to be nice and buy a bag of donuts or something. There is a volunteer treasurer who writes the modest rent checks for the hall, and a volunteer chairperson who keeps order at the meeting. There are no leaders as such, and no rules. Even the 12 steps are clearly labelled as “suggestions”.
We disturb nobody, and we have NEVER received a cent in government funding. We do not criticize people outside AA who drink, nor do we consider them alcoholics because they drink, nor do we tell new members that they are alcoholics. New members are invited to listen to other members’ and decide for themselves.
So what the fuck is all this angry criticism about? Why are there people demanding that AA produce scientifically measurable achievement standards when we are a free, anarachistic, unstructured group of people each pursuing his or her individual journey towards a sober, serene life that eluded us before? Significant numbers of us can tell you that AA keeps us sane, sober and happy in a way we could never achieve alone, no matter how hard we tried.
Would it matter if it kept 999 other people from seeking programs that were more effective? AA might be the best program, it might be better that nothing, it might be as good as nothing, or it might be worse than nothing. We just don’t know and without that information it seems irresponsible to point to AA as a great organization for recovering alcoholics.
Funny thing. NOT ONCE in 18 years have I met a person who used to go to AA and who told me, “Oh, I’ve found a wonderful program much better than AA. It’s not expensive, they have one right here in town, and my life is much much happier than before.”
Why has this never happened? Why are my ex-AA friends hiding this wonderful program from me?
Name me the programs that are more effective, please, and I will be happy to switch to them. I am NOT being argumentative or sarcastic. I am quite serious.
AA has worked fantastically well for me for 18 years. It costs me a voluntary donation of $4 a week (which is what I choose to give, not what anyone asks me to give). It takes a few hours of my time per week to attend meetings, meditate, etc. And it has made my life wonderful compared to what it used to be when I drank.
The last time I checked, detox and rehab programs all recommend that their “graduates” go to AA or another similar 12-step program.
I have never heard of an addictions counsellor who said: “AA??? There’s a program much better than that! It’s the ____________ Program. I’ll call them for you.”
But I am serious. What better programs do you know about? How much do they cost? Are they available in every city? Can you give me their websites?
If they really are better than AA, I will switch to them. I do not owe loyalty to AA. I owe myself a happy life.
I would have to know how effective AA was before I could find that out. I’m not saying AA isn’t the best program out there I just don’t know if it is. I don’t even know if it’s an effective program for getting alcoholics to stop drinking. You’ve argued that measuring the success rate of AA is impossible.
Odesio
What studies should I read? Nobody has provided a link to any studies --in point of fact members of AA in this thread say that it’s impossible to study the efficacy of AA for a variety of reasons- and, for whatever reason, you didn’t provide a link to the study you’re quoting.
Seems to me AA would have to be at least somewhat effective at at least moderating bad alcoholic behavior while you continue to attend. Might not cure you, but I can’t imagine folks attending regularly and drinking just as much before they bothered to attend (statistically speaking that is).
I think that this is a good point. I drink, am NOT an alcoholic, and have never been arrested for DUI. Knowing myself, I think it is possible that someone like me could, via a bad decision, get behind the wheel after having too much, without having suddenly become an “alcoholic” because of my poor decision or judgment.
Has anyone here been convicted of DUI when you drove after drinking too much, but you were not an alcoholic? Even if it’s not terribly common, I’d guess that there is a statistically significant population of non-alcoholic DUI offenders who could stand to have some sanctions against them such as “traffic school” and being made to watch those mythical crash videos (do they actually exist?), and given “education” about alcohol from the Bureau of Alcoholic Beverage Control, but not need “treatment” for alcoholism. Do we assume that people convicted of theft are automatically “kleptomaniacs” in need of treatment? No, but we are aware that some people can develop a real “problem” that leads to crime, and that might be part of someone’s individual probation plan (“Offender James Smith, based on an evaluation done in jail, as a condition of his probation, must either see a mental health professional, receive counseling from bona-fide clergy of a religion, or join a support group.”). That gives a good chance that the offender, if interested at all in changing, can find something that is helpful to HIM (or her) individually. Some people may benefit from formal psychiatric counseling and medication. Some people may benefit by sitting down with a priest/etc. and discussing their walk with God. Some people may benefit from a 12-step type program where they feel empowered to make choices.
I don’t have these studies in front of me but I know them cold. The chances that someone who receives a first DUI is an alcoholic are not appreciably different from the general population. That is to say, you can’t determine much at all from a single DUI other than the person made at least one poor driving choice. The alcoholic and non-alcoholic populations diverge sharply from there however. Non-alcoholics don’t need to drink all the time so they don’t get many 2nd DUI offenses or beyond. 2nd DUI’s suggest strongly that a person is an alcoholic and it is a virtual certainty by the 3rd or more.
I was going to do a nice positive post, but somehow I got angry in between. AA to my knowledge is a group of people trying to do what they believe in. They don’t ask for cash, they don’t ask for engagement, they actually don’t ask, THEY GIVE.
If you really want to chuck on unholesome bodies, Madhoff, Scientology… etc I can send you a list.
Go once to an AA meeting, for yourself, a sibling or a friend, or don’t, it may help, or not, at worst you will meet fascinating people, at best…
I went to an open meeting with my sister once. It was what people here are describing. A meeting in a church basement, with coffee and cookies, and a bunch of people who really wanted to help each other stay sober. During the meeting, one member was the speaker and told his war story, but the bulk of the “meeting” was in socialization. I don’t remember much mention of God - with the exception of the serenity prayer.
My sister rented a house cheaply from a fellow AA member when she was getting back on her feet. They’ve been there for her.
The meeting I went to was Christmas Eve in a snowstorm. My sister said almost all the regulars made it. One of them said “hell yes, if it were five years ago, the combination of Christmas Eve and a snowstorm wouldn’t have kept me from the bar - its not keeping me from here!”
The anger might come from drunks who don’t like being told again to try AA. They don’t think being a drunk is a problem, and they are not drunks, anyway. They think folks who think they are drunks are butting into their lives with judgemental condescension. And when it keeps happening over and over for years, it seems like AA is out to get them! They could quit any time, you know.
For her first three times through “getting dry” my sister hated AA. They were all a “bunch of drunks” talking about “how much fun they had when they got drunk.” She was much better than them. Any mention of God set her on edge. Steps were stupid. They were a cult.
Funny thing, the first two times through she was surrounded by people she had a lot more in common with. More urban, hip, young people.
The third time through it was her life, a roof over her head - or drinking. She still hated AA for the first few months - and as she ended up in a very small town surrounded by what to my cosmopolitan sister were “a bunch of hicks” - she may have been more right then ever in “I don’t have anything in common with these people.” After all, these folks listen to both kinds of music - Country AND Western. But this time she figured out that she had the most important thing in common with them - a desire to stay sober and not kill herself. And she learned to like Country.