The difference is more obvious in the pronunciations of those who separate the -er from the write- or ride- by having the syllable break come on the -er.
It’s like having the win-ter versus wint-er break.
They sound different when I say them.
I’ll add that here in Michigan I generally get the sense that people pronounce “rider” and “writer” differently, too. I know I do, unless I’m reading something aloud in which case I have a tendancy to speak way to fast and run everything together. I’ve heard “warsher” for “washer” sometimes, but that’s rare. “Steel” is “steel” and “still” is “still” here. I’ve always been bothered by the tendancy of a lot of people in these parts to say “ink pin” instead of “ink pen.” I grew up with “The Crick” behind my house, but every other instance of a small steam is a “creek” to me. Don’t get me started on “axe you sumpin.” The tool is a “router” but a via is usually a “root.” I’m the wierd one who says “soda” instead of “pop” but that’s not really the same thing. I’ve gotten used to saying “pro-gress” instead of “pra-gress” but that’s probably CBC’s influence.
And back to “rider”/“writer”: here’s my lously attempt at phonetically writing the differences:
rider: RYE-dur
writer: RUAI-tur
I sure don’t pronounce them the same way. I grew up north of Boston near the New Hampshire border, and I’ve been living in DC for almost 5 years.
I was told by a girl I knew (from New Orleans, by way of St. Louis) that I have a “surfer” accent. As a native Californian, I can tell the difference between my speech and a surfer’s! Strangely, I’ve been told that by some people that they can detect an English, Irish or Australian accent. (One person said I sounded Welsh.) But AFAIK my speech is completely unaccented (which anyone could say about theirs in the place where they grew up!) unless I’ve been hanging around English speakers from other countries; in which case I seem to have a bit of a “chameleon effect”.
As for the OP, I pronounce “writer” and “rider” differently.
Hey, that’s another good word. In these parts, there is only the tiniest difference in pronunciation of winter and winner.
I just asked two Canadian co-workers (one from near Toronto, the other from near Vancouver), and they both said they pronounce the words the same.
For me (raised in Texas, but often told that I don’t sound like a Texan), the only difference is in the initial sound. For “writer,” I start with my lips a little pursed, like I’m saying a word that starts with “w.” For “rider,” I start with my lips more relaxed.
If I’m speaking to my students (not native English speakers), I’ll usually go to the trouble to pronounce the “t” as a “t” and not as a “d.” Speaking naturally, in these particular words, I pronounce both as a “d.”
Standard American English is spoken nowhere natively, as all American dialects deviate from it in one way or another. Some more than others.
Writer and rider sound the same in my idiolect. I would imagine that while different English dialects might pronounce that first vowel differently (some making it a diphthong, others not) it would be the same vowel for both those words for any given speaker.
The voiceless alveolar stop [t] however has a tendency to become voiced when it occurs between two vowels. And the only difference between [t] and [d] is voicing. It’s a question of ease of articulation, below our awareness. It’s less effort to just voice an unvoiced consonant between two other voiced sounds, in this case vowels which are all voiced. Kind of a slapdash explanation, but that’s basically what’s happening.
-fh
I pronounce them the same way.
btw, I know people who pronounce “ass” and “ice” the same way too!
In my youth, the Beatles’ song “Paperback Rider” just didn’t make any sense to me.
Was the OP asking about pronunciation of the first vowel, or of the middle consonant? Seems we have two different interpretations.
I say both words the same. For the first vowel sound, I use a southern US “I” sound, which is not a diphthong.
For the middle consonant, I say both words with what’s called a tongue “flap,” which is pretty much a “d” sound. There are very few words (I can’t think of any right now) with a “t” in the middle, which I don’t pronounce as a flap.
Doesn’t anybody pronounce the “w”? I know I do - it’s pretty subtle, but I know it’s there.
Icephoenix, above is the most important point of this thread. The pronunciations of “writer/rider” by those who produce them as homophones are just as legitimate as your own pronunciation, which differentiates the two words.
Chula, no, California English is not Standard American English. There is no real established standard for American English, although an amalgamated arbitrary accent commonly called “newsspeak” more or less fills the bill.
Johnny L.A. – yes, you too, like all Americans, speak accented English. Just ask an Englishman or a Jamaican.
Required reading for all in this thread, especially icephoenix, chula, and Johnny L.A..
Upon preview, I see that hazel-rah and MrO have made very good points.
…
BTW, I pronounce “writer” and “rider” pretty much identically in conversation.
Consider words in which their is a “t” in the middle AND the second syllable is stressed, e.g. hotel, sateen, retake, pertain.
Syllable stress is what affects the manifestation of that medial “t” sound. In many dialects, medial “t” weakens when a stressed syllable precedes and an unstressed syllable follows.
MrO above indicates that he gives a little lip purse to words like wrote. This usage is fairly rare among all English speakers.
Umm, really? I’m from Michigan, and I can’t imagine that anybody I know back home would pronounce them differently (although I think I pronounce the “i” slightly differently between the two, but I can’t transcribe it).
Note that “rider” and “writer” both get a “d” sound from me when spoken normally, while “kitten” and “mitten”, despite their double t’s, get a glottal stop at best.
Also, while I was growing up in Michigan, I was certain that the guys on the news had an accent identical to mine… until I moved away and started noticing the differences. I can hear a Michigan accent when I go home now, and it’s much more similar to the Upper Peninsula, Canada, and Minnesota than any of us would like to admit.
All that said, I’m doing voiceover work now, and I’m finding that I’m creating a new accent (I’m much more careful about how I pronounce things, at least when I read them). When I first read “rider” and “writer” I pronounced them differently (“d” vs. “t”), but then I realized I wasn’t really saying them how I’d say them in conversation.
I pronounce them with somewhat different “I” sounds, but other than that it’s the same.
I missed MrO on preview (oops!) - but interesting point, didn’t realize that was rare. I have no idea where I picked it up, my own accent is a blend because I’ve lived in a lot of different places - Seattle, North Dakota, suburban DC, Minnesota, New York - plus half my family from Texas.
The USA is a full-sized country, unlike those little postage stamps in other parts of the world that would barely qualify as a state. Thus, one can expect a great deal of phonological variation.
Unlike say the Cornish accent when compared to a Lothian accent?
I don’t pronounce them the same, speaking as a lifelong midwesterner.
How about “colt” and “cult?” Those do come close for me.