Is it true that the Mormon Religion teaches its followers to Hate Blacks?

Nope. It was a policy, AFAIK derived from custom that got started sometime during the pioneer era (and perhaps we should note, during a period when the Mormons were living in Missouri, a pro-slavery state, and were generally hated by Missourians partly because they were anti-slavery and a large voting bloc. Some think it got started partly as a way to keep heads down, out of the way of the violent mobs.). You will not find scripture that says blacks cannot hold the priesthood. As far as I have ever been able to figure out, no one knows exactly how or why the policy was started. For myself, I suspect it solidified into policy over time.

True, Brigham Young and others made statements about the ‘mark of Cain,’ ‘Hamitic race’ and so on. That also was never considered either revelation or scripture; like just about everyone in the mid-19th century, many Mormons assumed that blacks were a different race. As I understand it, the whole Hamitic thing was widely believed in the US as Biblical history–it was not a specifically LDS belief, but part of everyone’s cultural knowledge. It stayed for a while.

Starting in the 60’s, church leaders were known to be unhappy about the policy and hoping for it to change, but it was felt that such a change would require revelation. There was an official statement supporting the civil rights movement and asking LDS members to pray for the priesthood to be extended to all worthy males. That request was reiterated every once in a while. Harold B. Lee in particular, who served as President of the LDS Church in 1972-73, was very concerned about the issue. By 1978, when (as LDS believe, obviously others won’t) permission was finally granted, most Church members were extremely relieved and happy; I’ve heard people tell stories of how overcome with joy they were (I myself was five). The ones who weren’t mostly left the Church, and good riddance, or learned to get along.

Now, it’s true that there was a folk doctrine floating around that blacks had somehow been ‘less valiant’ or something before birth. Since that was never doctrine, the Church leaders apparently feel that to officially repudiate it would be to insinuate that was doctrine before, and it wasn’t. I think this particular speculation came about for a couple of reasons: One, Mormons hate not knowing why, and sometimes they make up explanations, known as folk doctrine. These explanations are frequently spectacularly wrong, as we see here. Two, we also like things to be fair, and this policy was clearly, to American Mormons in the 50’s-70’s, not fair. So, went the reasoning, there must be some reason for the unfairness that in fact makes it fair. Such a reason could only have happened before birth. Thus, in a desire to make the world fair, someone made up one of the most incredibly racist theories possible. Such are the dangers of speculation in an absence of information.

Nowadays, the LDS Church officially makes a big effort to include all races. In Feb. of this year, the Washington DC temple’s visitors’ center hosted its annual exhibit on black history. The second African temple just opened in Accra, Ghana (Temple photo tour, “Day of celebration” photo essay).

Including Scientology?!

What in the WORLD? I wasn’t doing that at all! And frankly, I don’t belong to any organized church. The poster before me mentioned witch burning, which happened approximately 300 years ago so I compared it to the 24 years since Mormon’s said “those black folks are alright”

By the way, at a stretch, the good thing about satanism is that it teaches you to love YOURSELF, and follow your own needs.

Despite what it may call itself, I’ve never considered Scientology™ a religion. It seems more like multi-level marketing to me…

(…hmmm, but then again, so does Mormanism, door to door salesmen and all…) :stuck_out_tongue:

You know Aeschines you keep saying things like this, but refuse to address your specific objections. You’re welcome to start an entire thread on the topic, and you’d get lively discussion.

However, when you declare one belief as “fruitcakiest”, you should probably pursue full disclosure, and note that your beliefs include that It’s time to liquidate the Catholic Church, that although Monotheism is incorrect, Pantheism is correct, that near death experiences are proof of an afterlife, that you have a low opinion of Occam’s razor, etc. Also, you might want to mention that you’re not very good at reading the Bible.

Heh, I think you missed a couple of panels in Aeschines’ glass house, emarkp. :smiley:

Sorry, I wasn’t trying to offend you. I was just trying to point out that it’s useless to make any kind of point about how long ago x, y, or z happened, when bad things are still happening. I don’t see the significance of pointing out how long ago the witch burning occurred, when we can point to other things that happened more recently. So while you aren’t defending the Catholic Church by saying “oh well that was a long time ago when they did bad things”, I have heard people in other threads make such an argument. I guess I’m a little confused, though, as to exactly why you DID bring it up, then.

And just to stave off further argument, I’m not trying to criticize the Catholic Church. I’m just expressing my displeasure at those who say “Oh, the Mormons suck 'cuz they do x, y, and z, but MY religion doesn’t do that.” And again, I realize that’s not what YOU were doing, jarbabyj.

O.K., did I put enough caveats in there? :wink:

I don’t live in Utah and don’t really know why. I can provide you a link to some statistical information from the census bureau. Which indicates that Utah is in fact as you put it “more white” on average than the rest of the country . White persons, percent, 2000 (a) Utah 89.2% US 75.1%

And I can speculate a bit:

In the early days of the church when someone converted and became a member they were often wanted and were even encouraged to move to where the members were gathering, at times in Ohio, later Illinois and Missouri and finally Utah. The move outside the United States to what is now Utah came about as a result of intense religous persecution in the U.S. in Illinois and Missouri in particular. In fact in 1838 in the governor of Missouri issued an executive order that declared that members of the church who did not abandon their homes and property and vacate the state were to be “exterminated.” (The extermination order was not rescinded by the way until 1976.) So Utah was founded by members of the church who fled to what at the time was outside the boundaries of the United States. In those days most the people converting to the church were from Europe (because that is where the missionaries were having the most success) or of parentage here in the states that was from Europe, meaning they looked a lot like the folks that originally settled the Atlantic coast. (The Puritans for example.)

It seems to me that members of the Church in the early days in Utah tended to insularity due in part to this early history of intense persecution.

I don’t know much about the church in NZ (it’s a long way from Texas!) to address this part of your post

but I have a friend with Maori heritage and originally from NZ, though I think she joined the church while living in California. I will visit with her and see if I can come to understand how membership in the church affords wealth protection, housing and educational benefits and job security in NZ.

This will be interesting to learn as usually it’s the opposite question, people learn that because we believe in paying a full tithe, 10% of your increase, makes membership in the church “too costly” or elitist.

:smack: I meant to say, “This will be interesting to learn as usually it’s the opposite question. When people learn that because we believe in paying a full tithe, 10% of your increase, they frequently comment that they feel it makes membership in the church “too costly” and a strain on the budget.”

This is probably the most sensible thing I’ve ever heard said about Mormons and their faith.

Although, if you look at some neighboring states:

Colorado: 82.8% White
Wyoming: 92.1%
Idaho: 91%
Montana: 90.6%

So it’s not just a Utah thing. Another regional reason might be that those states never got much black immigration, because the big movement pattern was South to North, not western, and original Hispanic settlement wasn’t that far north.

Thanks Abby.
I’m speculating on this as I lived for many years 20 min from a basically ‘mormon’ town in NZ and often our area schools would play sport against teams from their high school. Yes, they contribute 10% of their income but in return, they are protected by the church, they had housing provided because they wanted to be part of the community and jobs became open to them for the same reason. For someone on umemployment, this may be highly attractive.

If anybody is interested, one of the best works on this fascinating period in Mormon history – very thorough and balanced – is Stephen Lesueur’s The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri.

I don’t know anything about the LDS Church in NZ, but I can well believe that it’s seen as a source of security there. In Mexico, for example, the Church runs several tutoring services (available to all) that help young people study for higher education exams–the tickets to middle-class prosperity. In Africa they run job placement programs that help people write resumes, get loans for small businesses, and so on. There’s a grant/loan program for third-world countries that offers education and middle-class jobs to people who would otherwise wind up unskilled laborers. The LDS Church gets involved in all kinds of stuff like that; I don’t know very much about it.

Even here in the US, there are job-placement programs, job training, and other stuff.
Heh–as I was vaguely mulling this thread over this morning I realized that Utah has at least one more African-American now than it did six months ago. Our friend just moved there, so as to be able to live next to a temple (he was taking the all-day trip from here once a week, but wanted to go daily). He’s retired–a Vietnam vet–and spends a lot of time doing temple work. He is greatly missed around here; I would bet that he was one of the most well-known and well-liked people in the stake.

From what I have studied, they change their unchangable doctrines on a semi regular basis at whim.

Actually, my understanding (and I’m sure an actual Mormon will correct me if I’m wrong) is that they don’t have “unchangable doctrines”, but rather believe in latter day revelation. That is to say that the President of the church is officially denominated the Prophet and, with appropriate prayer and consideration, may make revisions in doctrine when called to do so.

You may be confusing the LDS church with others that believe in unchanging doctrine and do not have a mechanism for revision when appropriate.

I think his point is, how can one revelation contradict a previous one? If the racism thing didn’t get instituted by revelation but just social custom, what about the polygamy thing? My admittedly dodgy knowledge of early LDS history tells me that it was both instituted and revoked by revelation.

Perhaps there are other doctrines that changed like that over time, I don’t know.

Do the LDS think God changes his mind, or the previous revelation was somehow a false one, or what? If false revelations are possible, how can they be confident in any of the current ones?

For the record, I have no problem with Occam’s razor, just with the vulgarized versions of it that have currency on this board.

I’m flattered that you would go through my posts and read. I stand by my positions with reason, data, and my own personal experiences. I take nothing on faith, especially the patently absurd beliefs of Mormonism.

As for Scientology, I would not consider it quasi-major. Just quasi-quasi-major.

I sure know why I don’t live in Utah! :smiley:

It still implies that god has apparently a hard time either making his mind about these issues (more than one century in this case) or that he’s poorly understood by his “prophets”.

Nothing new here… religious credos evolve to fit the current mores, or the religion die out because its statements became unacceptable for the majotiry of the potential believers/converts.