Do you understand the difference between using a nickname, and claiming “I am a woman even though I have a penis”?
Regards,
Shodan
So you claim you’re just insulting Manning, but you admit you don’t actually believe transgender people even exist? And you don’t know why people interpret it, correctly, as an attack on an entire class of people?
No matter how vile or treacherous or criminal a person’s actions are, I think how we treat that person reflects on ourselves. A person can be a jerk, an asshole, deserving of execution even, but we do not deny they are human. There are lines that if crossed speak to our own character. Where a person’s gender status falls on that spectrum is for each to decide, and for others to judge them for it.
Of course there’s a difference but it’s a difference that seems irrelevant to this topic. What is the difference which makes it okay or even necessary to be obstinate about how you address one person but not the other? In neither case should you be inconvenienced if you address them by their preference but in either case you risk upsetting or even offending the other person if you don’t. And in either case you could claim that you’re just being accurate from a certain perspective.
I don’t use this word in this manner …
… because it would reflect on my own character …
There are exceptions … I was helping my mom with her dog and laying out the whole “alpha” and “beta” classes within dog-culture and at the end I proudly informed her I just called her a bitch … she laughed and said I sure did …
Which brings us right back to “I only called him a nigger because I knew it would make him angry. Other black people shouldn’t be offended.”
To be fair, it was pointed out that the word nigger is inherently offensive for historical and cultural reasons that the word “he” is not.
It is not the word itself, it is the usage.
So, it is more like saying “I only called that black adult man “boy”, because I knew it would make him angry. Other’s should not be offended.”
I ask those who defend Shodan’s misgendering (and shodan), if that is appropriate?
But, so far as I can tell, Shodan’s objection isn’t rooted in anything specific to Manning. That is, he doesn’t seem to be claiming that he doubts Manning’s identity because of something Manning’s said or done - his objection seems to be rooted to transgender persons in general.
As I read Shodan, and of course he’s free to set me straight, his situation is that he thinks that all transgender people are wrong or mentally ill or something along those lines but, for the sake of being a polite person, he is fine with using whatever pronouns people prefer while still thinking it’s bunk. Manning, by their actions, has not earned (or has lost) his respect, and so he’s not willing to extend to her the respect of his politeness.
Sure they exist. There are people who claim to be women even though they have XY chromosomes. That makes them transgender; it doesn’t make them women.
They aren’t interpreting it correctly.
It’s like Atamasama’s point about annoying nicknames. If Manning hated being called “Bradley” and wanted to be called “Brad”, then I could express my contempt for his actions by calling him “Bradley”. That’s not an attack on everyone named “Bradley”. They can take it that way if they want, but who cares?
If you mean Bradley Manning vs. someone else, it’s okay because he is a traitor.
If you mean cisgender vs. transgender, or whatever the correct phrase is now, one reason is that language operates by consensus. Words mean what they mean because most people agree that a certain set of phonemes communicate a certain idea or set of ideas. You can use it in a different way to mean a different set, but it’s rather difficult to compel other people to stop meaning what they mean and agree that they didn’t mean it.
Abraham Lincoln told a riddle once that is illustrative. The riddle is “how many legs does a dog have, if you call a tail a leg?” The answer is, four. Calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it a leg. Transgender people are, to a certain extent, saying “why can’t you just agree with me that Fido is a five-legged dog? Don’t you care about my feelings?”
Regards,
Shodan
This seems like a very odd suspicion. Many transgender persons have undergone considerable and lengthy surgery in order to fully match their gender identity. They have, and still do, risk considerable societal pressure and potential discrimination. To agree to that would take rather a considerable amount of certainty. By contrast, what has someone like me done to reveal my certainty at who I am?
Really, it makes far more sense to “suspect” that transgender people are considerably more sure of their gender identity than the rest of us are. It’s like the betting gambit Bricker brings out every so often; put some money on the line, and suddenly people aren’t so willing to back their words. Transgender people have a lot more money on the table than you or I do.
Uh-huh. Okay. You don’t deny trans people exist, you just think they’re crazy. Got it. That certainly is an attack on an entire class of people, though.
[QUOTE=Wiki]
Deliberately misgendering a transgender person is considered extremely offensive by transgender individuals.
[/QUOTE]
+1
This is a very cogent point, in my view. Shodan, while I have no reason to question your gender identification, from what I know of you, the fact is that all of society affirms your identity as male. So your certainty, genuine though it surely is, has never undergone much trial.
In contrast, someone who stubbornly identifies as one gender when the vast weight of society relentlessly pushes another gender on them is expressing a surety that deserves serious consideration. They are not (generally) merely seeking attention; they are sincerely and resolutely insisting that they be recognized as who they know they are.
What does make them a woman then? Do they need your permission first?
So, if everyone on this board decided that from now on, you will be known as Hillary Clinton, you would be fine with that?
When I see a human being claim to be a female, I call that person a woman. If she presents as a woman, dresses and acts like a woman, what do words care how she was born, what’s between her legs, or what her chromosomes are?
More importantly, why do you care?
How many limbs does that dog have? It’s got 5 right?
If I make that claim, do you then argue with me that it doesn’t have 5 limbs, it has 4 legs?
So, when I say that Fido is a 5 limbed dog, and you say, no, fido is a 4 legged dog, you are deliberately missing the point, and showing that you are prejudiced against beings with tails.
So, the social construct of a women is much more how one presents themself than what plumbing one was born with.
Your argument is trying to play semantic games, and it is not convincing.
I assume your reasons for arguing on the grammar is because your reasons for not accepting someone’s transgendered status are important and personal to you.
Weird to be in a thread where I’m finding myself in almost total agreement with Bone and Bricker, but I like it!
May I engage in a short hijack about a question I’ve been contemplating?
Say you know someone, not well, but a bit. This person, like many people, has two biological parents. Unlike most people, these biological parents are both women: one cis-woman, and one trans-woman (who has come out as trans only in the past couple of years).
What’s the etiquette on referring to these two parents? Would I talk about Bob’s mother and father, given the biological phenomenon involved? Or Bob’s moms?
I know what Shodan would say, so he can feel free to chime in; I’m more interested in what the trans community would say if any folks are around, or if folks have encountered this issue before.
Would it matter if Bob were a child, and I were talking with Bob?
My certainty that water is wet hasn’t undergone much trial either, probably for much the same reasons. Society considers me male because society has decided to label people with XY chromosomes and a penis and so forth as “male”.
A certain wise Doper has been known to post “if ten people tell you that you are drunk, go and lie down”. What if ten million tell you that you aren’t a woman? Why doesn’t the vast weight of society count then?
XX chromosomes would do it. I suppose gender reassignment surgery and a legal change to their status might do it. Simply announcing it - not so much.
I don’t. That is, I don’t care enough to play along.
No, I then point out that a “limb” is a limb if it is jointed or prehensile. (Cite, assuming Wiki is good enough).
No, I don’t think it is me who is missing the point, nor do I think using words the same way everyone else does shows prejudice against dogs.
Even if you weren’t wrong, that wouldn’t follow.
Regards,
Shodan
Three quarters of Americans want transgender folks to be protected under the law. I’m having trouble finding how many people adopt your “a dick means you’re a dude” definition, but at this point, it’s far from a universal “society” position. Society no longer lables everyone with XY chromosomes and a penis as “male,” or haven’t you noticed?
Society sometimes gets things wrong. If there’s systematic oppression, that lovely proverb may just not apply.
I think it’s also obnoxious to look at some bluto looking dude in a dress and asked to use pronouns that do not align with how many people see that person.
pronoun demanding transperson: Reality is MY conception of reality, and my conception of reality is what ought to be enforced. You have a different conception? then bend to MY will !!!
I find that pretty obnoxious too. I don’t encounter this often, but if I am asked to refer to a transperson as a preferred pronoun it feels off and I resent it, even if I oblige.
Not that anyone cares what I resent.
What does it say when even Fox News refers to her as her. The vast weight of society decided gays weren’t mentally ill and the vast weight of society has decided to refer to trans people by their preferred gender. I think you’re a little late to appeal to popular opinion on this.
Just out of curiosity, after disparaging this bluto in a dress, and you find out that they are in fact entirely female, born that way, chromosomally that way, and that’s what their BC says, and you find out that they have pituitary cancer that is causing them to manifest male sexual characteristics, how do you apologize?
Well, ideally I would not have interacted at all to be forced into offering a pronoun. But if I was wrong then I would say sorry I was mistaken.
I’m generally less comfortable around trans people than most of you all I suspect. The “off” voice of a male to female trans person is something I find off putting, and as a consequence, if I had trans people in my sphere, I’d probably associate with them less than others.
This is my primary area of… not racism, but trans…ism.
You all have this too, it is just honed in more against people me who are less comfortable around trans people. And no, I am not afraid of them, I find them less pleasing to be around, tonally, and physically. BTW, I suspect a LOT of people fall into the latter category, even the ones coming in here saying they would respect pronouns, I just said what they truly think/feel.