Is JK Rowling transphobic?

Great Debates
101

I think “social importance” as a concept borders on self-contradiction. An individual can decide what is important to them, but there’s no independent objective metric for gauging if a concept “has social importance” outside of individual opinion. I suppose if enough individuals in a society decide that an idea is important, it takes on a kind of “social” importance, but it’s completely arbitrary and varies wildly from decade to decade and place to place.

The only aspect of any of this that strikes me as having some objective basis is that we need two humans with certain characteristics to engage in certain activities if we want to get more humans down the road. Everything else is just personal opinion, of about as much importance as what sports teams they like to follow.

By the way, my original comment was “Someone should grow the fuck up”, but I thought “chill the fuck out” was a smidgen more diplomatic, if less personally satisfying.

102

Depends on the circumstance. Usually nothing. Again, it’s a thousand-to-one ratio.

This is a group of people every bit as imaginary as the centaurs in JK Rowling’s books.

103

I realize this thread has drifted far from the original topic, but I want to mention again that Maya Forstater was fired not just for having a transphobic opinion, but for repeatedly expressing that opinion on social media, often in vulgar forms. She works for a think tank, which probably relies on grants and donations. What if one of the donors is trans, or has a trans child? She should have had the basic common sense not to act like that, and her organization was right to fire her. People have been fired for less.

This is basic judgement that you all probably use on a daily basis, and not just on current hot-button issues. You might be the biggest metalhead in the world, but you’re not going to wear your Venom t-shirt to your job at the kiddie day care.

104

Do some research before spouting nonsense.

105

A think-tank that studies social inequality.

106

I’m related to one. I’m pretty sure I didn’t imagine her at Thanksgiving dinner. Also, who was blocking Grigor Murray’s pride float then? Also, who knew Julie Bindell was imaginary?

107

Rational Wiki? Really? I mean, it’s not Conservapedia, but “look at the off brand wiki page” that has a bunch of half truths on it isn’t a compelling cite.

108

What part of it is in error?

109

I agree that trangendered folks should not be given shit.

I am trying to find out where the line is between “shit” and “not shit”, though. Since you have been kind enough to engage me respectfully on this, I’ll ask you to help me. But anyone reading this is welcome to jump in.

Let’s say there’s a brand-new sociology professor. He’s teaching Gender and Society 101. On the first day of class, he starts the lecture off by asking his class to brainstorm terms that are related to gender or sex. One of the terms that gets thrown out is “mansplaining”.

The professor asks someone for a definition of “mansplaining”, and a couple of female students talk about their experience with it. One of the students says, “Women can be condescending too. But they tend not to show it in the same way that guys do.”

A student in the front raises their hand. To the professor’s eye, the student appears to be a man’s man-- line-backer physique, mustache and goatee, bald head, lumberjack attire. So that’s why the professor is shocked when the student says, “I take offense to the whole concept of mansplaining. I’ve been accused of mansplaining numerous times even though I’m a woman. So if women can mansplain, the concept makes no sense. No man has ever treated me like I’m stupid anway, so I don’t get why other women get so worked up about this.”

There’s a silence as everyone tries to process the words that were just said. And then a couple of the female students respond by questioning the validity of student’s “woman perspective”. The student says rather loudly: “Don’t start with me! I’m just as much a woman as you!” The class erupts in groans and laughter.

The professor might react in a myriad of ways. So I’ve narrowed down a few negative reactions and I have provided my ethical assessment of them.

Negative Reaction #1

The professor tells the student: “Um, please don’t play crazy gender games in this class. You’re a dude! We can clearly see it! So STFU about you being a woman!”

Assessment: This is a no-brainer. Very offensive and very shitty. No one should have their gender identity invalidated like that. The professor is a transphobe.

Negative Reaction #2

The professor tries to change the subject while thinking to himself, “WTF. It’s my first freakin’ day on the job and I’ve got a wackjob in my class.” The professor successfully hides his emotions from the class, but he makes a mental note to be careful about calling on that student in the future.

Assessment: Unclear to me. On one hand, I believe that people are entitled to their un-PC thoughts. But on the other, the professor intends to let those un-PC thoughts shape his future behavior in a way that could be detrimental to the student’s self-esteem. That seems like a bad thing to do.

Negative Reaction #3

The same reaction as above plus the professor goes on a message board later that night and talks about his discomfort with allowing any and all gender self-identification, citing what happened in his class as an example of how disruptive it can.

Assessment: Unclear to me. On one hand, I believe that people are entitled to their un-PC thoughts. But on the other hand, it’s a different thing to share those un-PC thoughts in a public way so they can be exploited by those with harmful agendas.

Negative Reaction #4

The professor scolds the class for disrespecting the student’s gender identity. He says, “There are no rules on who gets to be called ‘woman’! It is wrong and harmful for you to gate-keep! Don’t ever do that ever again or I’ll throw you out!”

Assessment: I think this is shitty, but I’m open to being persuaded otherwise. The professor is acting like that students are crazy for seeing the same thing his own eyes saw–a very masculine male person identifying as a woman for no apparent reason other than it being “allowable”. The students should not have groaned and laughed. That was disrespectful. But is it inherently hateful to suspect that student’s motives? Is it inherently harmful to distinguish the experience a person has as a self-identified gender from the experience of someone who is perceived by others (through social rules and norms) to belong to gender? I can see the potential for hate and harm. But I don’t think they are inherently hateful and harmful.

I’m curious to see where we might be in agreement and where we might disagree.

110

…well here’s the thing: Gregor identifies as non-binary. You know this. Yet you insist on not using the pronouns they prefer. This doesn’t say anything about Gregor Murray. But it does say a lot about you.

In this thread you alluded to the fact that Gregor identified as a women (when you knew perfectly well they did not) and you’ve doubled down on it here.

Those are objectively nasty, vindictive actions.

What the fuck is this bullshit?

In no world that I live in does Gregor Murray, Councillor from Dundee (who doesn’t even have a page on wikipedia) dominate the headlines. We all had to collectively google Murray’s name when it popped up in this thread. The only place where Gregor Murray’s name would dominate the headlines are the places that host the nastiest most vile of anti-transgender propaganda.

You’ve called yourself out. Its kind of sad that we have a moderator here that openly expresses transphobic views. However you were the moderator that said that I was only pretending to be Maori many years ago, so I suppose this is all par for the course.

Congrats on finally using the correct pronoun for Murray. Was that so hard? Now that you have demonstrated that it is entirely possible to use the correct pronouns for Murray, will you continue to do so in the future? And if not, can you tell us the reason why you wouldn’t?

Is it your position that people who express they identify as non-binary are lying?

111

The situation, as you outlined here, would also be ripe for 4chan trollery. 4chan thrives off of exploiting loopholes when it sees them, and so do many other bad-faith actors in society. A system where someone appears obviously male - linebacker physique, big bushy beard, male voice - goes about purposefully claiming to be a woman and calling people bigots for doubting it, is ripe for exploitation and abuse of the rules.
For a relevant example, see this: “I am a 6’5 Chinese Woman.”

112

Yeah how dare she refer to someone who, by all accounts and purposes, looks, dresses and sounds like a man, as a man.

If someone wants to appear ambiguous, that’s perfectly fine. Gregory is actively choosing not to. I’m not even going to go on because insisting on using ‘they’ when other words are far more obvious and appropriate is just stupid. Yet doing what’s entirely obvious results in certain people screaming at me.

113

…what is the correct way for someone who identifies as non-binary to present themselves, in your opinion? And how is Gregor actively choosing not to do so?

114

No, I did not.

Of course, that isn’t what I said, as you well know. You are referring to a post written on March 17, 2015, in which I - obviously tongue in cheek - suggested your posts were being written by a computer program. If you think I seriously meant that, I think you need to fix your irony meter and read a little more carefully.

Well, the easy one to pick on is:

“Toronto Public Library allows for denying a booking to a group “promoting discrimination, contempt or hatred for any group or person on the basis of […] sex, gender identity, gender expression”… Their deliberate choice not to invoke this clause implies strongly that TPL and Toronto’s City Librarian Vickery Bowles tacitly approve of transphobia.Toronto Public Library, proclaiming that they were fully in support of LGBT rights and inclusiveness, supported a talk by TERF Meghan Murphy saying that it was acceptable to them under free speech laws,[97] despite that they also stated they would prevent talks that would ‘promote discrimination’ - apparently, Toronto Public Library believes discrimination against trans people does not count. They emphasised that they’d already hosted a Neo Nazi group, because apparently two wrongs make a right.”

First of all, no intelligent person would read this paragraph, or weird asides like “When MRAs complain about discussion of men’s issues being shut down, you can bet wads of cash that TERFs were behind it.” and think the source that wrote it was a serious cite. Jesus.

But let’s break it down; this was a big story in Toronto and anyone who lives here knows this is a remarkable string of lies.

  1. TPL did not “support” the talk. They rented the room out as per their policy.

  2. They did not say “it was acceptable to them under free speech laws.” They stated, correctly, that TPL allows anyone to rent meeting space unless their rules are violated, and that none were.

  3. No discrimination took place. The reason TPL did not invoke their rule against “promoting discrimination, contempt or hatred” is because no one could provide TPL with an actual example of the speaker doing this.

  4. To claim that the City Librarian came to this decision because she’s “Transphobic” is slanderous. There is no evidence whatsoever of that. She made a decision based on the plain facts and the rules. To say they feel “discrimination against trans people does not count” is also false; there is no evidence they do not take that seriously. It’s simply the case that there was no evidence of it.

115

Why? Are you implying men can’t be feminists? Because nothing in Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists says anything about men or women (sorry, or ‘them’).

116

I mean, I’m seeing a looooot of point #2 from certain people in this thread. And not the ones you mean to accuse.

117

Exactly. There isn’t a way to NOT appear like either gender, or at least show obvious traits of either gender, because it isn’t a thing. I’m sure this person has extremely complicated feelings toward appearing like a man when They doesn’t ‘feel’ like one, and I can’t imagine the struggle of dealing with that every day. But They are still making a deliberate choice to appear, 100%, as a man. I’m just curious as to why.

118

I disagree. People with ambiguous gender expressions are a thing. I encounter people I can’t readily peg gender-wise quite frequently. I’m guessing the majority of folks with a mixed or ambiguous gender expression tend to identify as “man” or “woman” based on their genitalia. But it would make perfect sense for them to identify as “non-binary” or “agender” too.

I kinda think if I had been born twenty years ago, I’d be calling myself “non-binary”. That concept didn’t exist (around me) when I was coming of age, though.

119

…yeah you did.

It doesn’t matter what you fucking meant. There are only a handful of indigenous voices on these boards. It is really hard to discuss indigenous matters here because people like you shout-us-down and pretend you were just being “tongue in cheek.”

The reality is that words matter. And when you openly and proudly misgender people in this thread I remembered how I felt when you “suggested my posts were being written by a computer program” in response to my use of a few Maori words to add context to a discussion about indigenous issues. I remember how insulting and hurtful that was and how I thought to myself if a moderator can say stuff like this then why should I even be hanging around here any more? Do you know how hard it was for me to speak up then? Do you not understand the privilege you have in discussions like that one or discussions like this?

And I think how insulting and hurtful your words are in this thread. And I think about the exodus of transgender people that we’ve had from these boards, and how much the language you (and others) have chosen to use in this thread contributes to that. I would ask that you reflect on that, just for a little bit.

120

…nonsense.

Identifying as non-binary Doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with appearance. For some it is, but for many it isn’t. What makes you think that it does?

Perhaps you could start here. You might never be able to imagine the struggle with dealing with that every day, but you can learn how to be respectful and supportive.

You can be curious: but I asked you about your assertion “Gregory is actively choosing not to” and my question to you was “what is the correct way for someone who identifies as non-binary to present themselves”, and you still haven’t answered this question.